BOB STEPHENS

TRANSCRIPT %u2013 BOB STEPHENS
[Compiled July 24th, 2010]

Interviewee: BOB STEPHENS

Interviewer: Brendan Greaves

Interview Date: August 7th, 2008

Location: Shelby, NC

Length: Approximately 1 hour, 35 minutes

Introduction: The recording begins with Brendan Greaves reading a purpose statement for the interviews conducted for the Oral History Project of the Earl Scruggs Center in Shelby, North Carolina.

BRENDAN GREAVES: It%u2019s kind of a mouthful, but basically it will be on record, not only here in Shelby, but also at UNC-Chapel Hill in the university library.
BOB STEPHENS: I heard about a similar program they were doing out of Charlotte. Were you--?
BG: Really? I wasn%u2019t involved with that.
BS: Yeah.
BG: But it was a similar kind of oral history project?
BS: Yes. I had heard about it on the radio.
BG: Yeah, folks have been doing work like this in different communities--well, all over the place really, but I think those efforts are kind of accelerating recently, which is good.
BS: Yes, sir.
BG: It%u2019s a good thing, I think. So the next step, basically, is to make a record on tape of who we are, when it is--it%u2019s August 7th, 2008. I%u2019m Brendan Greaves; I%u2019m doing the interview; I%u2019m here with Mr. Robert Stephens.
BS: Yes. [Laughter] BG: Mr. Stephens, if you could just say for the record where you were born and your date of birth.
BS: I was born in Greene County, Ohio, really Fairborn, Ohio at the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. My father, Robert (2:17) Stephens, Sr. was in the Air Force. He fought in Korea and he was a Korean War veteran. In fact, he just died last year, last May, but by him being in the Air Force, I was born in the hospital at the Air Force base, at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. My brother and sister say I was born in the airplane, [laughter] but I was born at the Air Force base. My father was a great American; he fought in Korea and he was a fireman with--he put out the planes during the war. The planes would come in shot and he would rescue, he was ambulance, fireman--. You know, when they land, he goes and puts them on (3:18) and he saved one or two guys. He always talked about how cold it was over there in Korea. I had an uncle in Korea too. Uncle Leon, he was over in Korea too. I had another uncle that fought with Patton.
BG: Wow, really?
BS: In Normandy, in France. I think my family, we%u2019ve done our share. [Laughter] Believe it or not, I had another uncle--his name was Wayne, Wayne 3:57)--a gospel singer, speaking of music, Little Wayne and the Daytonians. He was in the Korean conflict with Castro. In fact, he just passed last year. The music, it%u2019s been a part of our family, and we%u2019re just proud to (4:24) the American music [pause] and we%u2019re just proud. [Laughter] BG: And what about your parents? Were they born in Ohio also?
BS: My mom was born in Lexington, Kentucky. My grandfather was a bishop; traveled around, a traveling evangelist like Billy Graham, and she was born in Lexington, Kentucky. I%u2019ll back up for a minute--my grandfather, he went around and planted churches; I guess you would call him an apostle. He planted churches in different towns in Virginia, in St. Louis; Lexington, Kentucky, Florida; all around the country, and he would establish churches. A street corner preacher and, you know, tent revivals, that type of thing. You don%u2019t see the tents any more too much. But anyway, my mom was born in Lexington, Kentucky. My grandfather was--back to music--he was the announcer for Miss Mahalia Jackson; he was her announcer.
BG: What was his name?
BS: His name was Bishop S.L. Henry, Bishop Henry, (5:49) Henry. He was one of the--this charismatic movement, this Pentecostal movement; he was one of the founders of it in the 1910s, %u201820s; he was one of the founders of the Pentecostal movement here in the United States. He was a great preacher and a singer. In fact, he played the blues on the piano before he started preaching. He was a great man, a doctor. They named a school, a preaching school after him. Now he wasn%u2019t a doctor; he did so much work, he was an honorary doctor. He%u2019s in the history books; they write about him. So my mom was born in Lexington while he was a pastor there, but he pastored many churches around the country and then he ran revivals around the country. He was a good singer. He didn%u2019t record. He would go to a town and he was such a great, dynamic speaker and singer and piano player that people--he was a magnet. He had a lot of charisma and people were drawn to him. Still, to this day, and he%u2019s been dead ten, fifteen years, people still talk about him and what a great man he was and his music ministry. By the way, my grandmother was a musician too. She was from Peoria, Illinois and my grandfather was from Florida originally--Tallahassee, Florida. Out of that, all of my family are musicians and preachers, all of them. I won%u2019t even name them, but they%u2019re all--some famous, some not so famous, and recording artists. Like I said, I%u2019m not even going to start naming the groups and the people, but in the church field and in the R&B field, so that%u2019s the tree, and you want to talk about the history and the history of music--. Going back to my grandfather, he was from Florida but he had moved up north, [Telephone ringing] but he still kept that southern swing, that blues and that country feel, so he still could do that. He could have been a musician. You might know how they sing the songs, the slave type of songs where they sing with no music. Have you maybe heard those?
BG: Um-hmm, the old spirituals.
BS: Yeah, he could do that, and then he could play the blues, so back in the day he had a quartet. Marvin Gaye%u2019s daddy was my granddaddy%u2019s piano player. They was in the quartet together.
BG: Really?
BS: Yeah, he was--all from Lexington, Kentucky--he was my grandfather%u2019s piano player.
BG: That%u2019s amazing.
BS: Yeah.
BG: So what instruments did your grandfather play?
BS: He played piano and drums [pause] and guitar--piano and drums and guitar. He preached down here, you know, during this Red Springs--down your way, all down there--Rocky Mount, all down there he preached.
BG: What about on the other side? Your dad, was he born in Ohio?
BS: My dad was born in Ohio. He was a quartet singer, jazz-slash, jazz singer; he had a quartet. But he loved the Beatles and %u201CThe Shadow of Your Smile.%u201D He was smooth, like Billy Eckstine, [now singing] %u201Cthe shadow of your smile,%u201D and all of that. When I play--I play for the seniors up here from time to time, when I%u2019m up to par, when I%u2019m feeling good, and I play a song for my dad, %u201CThe Shadow of Your Smile.%u201D I play a song for my daddy and I play a song for my mom. My mom%u2019s song was %u201CBy the Time I Get to Phoenix.%u201D
BG: I love that song.
BS: I play that in my heart and I play those two songs as a dedication to them. Most every night when I play, I%u2019ll play a song dedicated to my father and dedicated to my mom. The people, the audience, they don%u2019t really know, but I know. I don%u2019t really say, %u201CThis is in honor,%u201D but I should do that.
BG: Yeah, I think the folks might want to know that.
BS: Yeah, right, right. [Laughter] BG: I think that%u2019s a touching detail.
BS: He was a real smooth singer, real smooth. You know, the guys don%u2019t even sing like that any more, like Vic Damone and Andy Williams; they don%u2019t even sing like that, you know, %u2018cause they got into harder things, but he was smooth.
BG: So how did your people end up in North Carolina? Or how did you end up here?
BS: I was a traveling musician. I left home--well, the first time I left home, at seventeen, I was with a group called The Mighty Clouds of Harmony out of Brooklyn, New York--hot, hot group--quartet. Southern style--they were from New York, but they were a Southern-style gospel group. I was seventeen and I flew to Jacksonville, Florida. I had never been on a plane before, and we toured, we toured about two or three weeks. Well, maybe a month, but the band broke up and we had some money problems. While we were in Florida, down in Gainesville and all like that, the group broke up. I was out there on the road at seventeen and stranded. So this Jamaican guy, his name was Bishop Penn; he was out of Miami, and he offered me a job playing for the tent. So I had played for tent and street meetings all my life, so I said, %u201CI%u2019ll do this.%u201D [Laughter] So we did that and he had all these semi trucks; you lived on the semi trucks and [pause] they made the semi trucks your home, like a camper. We traveled all around. I did that for that summer and played for him.
BG: What was the name of that show?
BS: He was a healer, you know, like people if you had sickness, he would put roots in a bag, and [pause] a faith-healer like Oral Roberts, you know? We traveled from town to town; you had to set up the tent; you had to put sawdust down there, and then you had to take leaflets and go around the town to pass out--. You know, we had to walk. I walked all over Savannah, all over Jacksonville, all over Gainesville, and I know all those towns. Tallahassee, I know, because you went door-to-door, %u201CCome out to the tent.%u201D You know, you do the radio thing. We%u2019d stay in the town one to two weeks and then we%u2019d move on. You had to stay because we had equipment and you had to sleep out there with the microphones and the--you know, you had to sleep out there with the equipment to guard it. People will come to a tent service--I guess it%u2019s not so formal--where they might not come in a church, so we would have a lot of people trying to turn their life, a lot of them street people, alcoholics, prostitutes. People, they%u2019ll come in--homeless, you know, so we did that, then we would move. We didn%u2019t stay more than two or three weeks, but it%u2019s a lot of work. See, you had to walk the streets all day, then you had to play that night, and the chairs and sawdust, and it%u2019s a lot of work.
BG: What year was this?
BS: Man, I was seventeen; it had to be %u201969, %u201968--%u201969? Yeah, %u201970 maybe. It was %u201970, because I was on the road; I had to come home for my graduation. I was working, so my mama and them made me come home to graduate. So I came home for my family. My grandfather, he didn%u2019t think I was going to graduate.
BG: This is your mom%u2019s dad?
BS: Yeah, the preacher, the bishop. So he was at the graduation and so, you know, I was kind of rough coming up, and so the spirit, when he%u2019s seeing me walk over to the stage, he got the Holy Ghost, %u201CHallelujah, thank you, Jesus!%u201D [Laughter] %u2018Cause he didn%u2019t believe it.
BG: He was proud.
BS: He had prayed. [Laughter] %u201CHallelujah!%u201D And people started clapping, and then they didn%u2019t really think I was going to come home too. So, %u201CHallelujah, Lord, we thank you!%u201D So I played with The Mighty Clouds of Harmony and then I come home, graduated, stayed home for about--I wasn%u2019t home long--six months. I was going to be a chef; I was going to cooking school; I was going to be Emeril.
BG: [Laughter] BS: It%u2019s going to be Emeril; I was going to cooking school. Then I went to a show one night, the Brooklyn All-Stars and Shirley Caesar.
BG: She%u2019s from around here--Durham.
BS: She%u2019s a very famous singer. My girlfriends that I grew up with, they had started singing with Shirley Caesar. My friends were singing with Shirley Caesar, so Shirley Caesar came to Dayton and I got on the organ. Nobody asked me to get on the organ. [Laughter] My friends were singing, the organ was empty; I got on the organ. It seemed somewhere to me. You know, you%u2019re young; you don%u2019t care. I didn%u2019t know the show or nothing. So I got with Shirley Caesar, world-famous gospel; I get on the organ. Then the Brooklyn All-Stars heard me play and they took me that night. They told me to go get my clothes, and I wasn%u2019t a good player, they just liked that I had that nerve and I had ambition. I was seventeen, eighteen; I wasn%u2019t a good player, but they loved me. The first time, they said, %u201CHe can%u2019t play.%u201D Then they said, %u201CNo, you played for Shirley Caesar.%u201D That%u2019s what they said, right? They were talking to me and I said, %u201CI can play. If y%u2019all can sing, I can play.%u201D I was just talking. I got the job and I have played with them on and off, mostly in the studio--I%u2019m a writer. I played with them on and off for forty years.
BG: Wow.
BS: When you%u2019re a musician, you freelance. So, the Brooklyn All-Stars, the Drifters, the Ohio Players, the Ink Spots--.
BG: You played with all them?
BS: Yeah. [Laughter] And the Violinaires out of Detroit, Bill Moss and the Celestials, [pause] of course, I played with Shirley Caesar, I played for the Caravans, Dorothy Norwood. Some of the groups I was member, and some groups I just played maybe a show with them, a program with them, but I%u2019ve been a member--I was a member of the Violinaires and the Brooklyn All-Stars, I mean a full member, a full member of the band, not somebody that helped out on the show. I helped out [20:21] or many people. Gary [20:27], well, I was a member with him, him and Linda [20:31]. Linda was a Miss North Carolina.
BG: What year?
BS: Yeah, they was from Raleigh. She was Miss North Carolina.
BG: What year was that? Do you remember what year it was?
BS: I played with them in the eighties in Hickory, at the Cabaret Club in Hickory. I%u2019ve played with the Chairmen of the Board.
BG: Oh, I%u2019ve interviewed General, the General.
BS: Yeah, I was a member with them. I was a member with them, and I%u2019ve been blessed. I played with Tyler Perry.
BG: Really?
BS: Yeah. [Laughter] The plays, I did the plays. We were doing A Good Man is Hard to Find, and we were in Florida--Tampa--and they had these songs; this guy wanted royalties. They were using the song in the play, and they had got behind in the payments or something, and he said, %u201CIf you%u2019re going to sing my songs, if you don%u2019t pay me, I%u2019m going to take my songs out of the play.%u201D He called the police. They said, %u201COkay.%u201D So they sent for Tyler Perry and he came to--this is one of his plays. He just came in; me and him sat down. He said he was a play doctor. He was living in New Orleans then, and me and him wrote two new songs. We had to write two new songs that day to replace the songs that they were taking out because the police was--the writer wanted his royalties. This is a true story.
BG: When was that?
BS: Oh, man, in the nineties.
BG: Nineties, yeah.
BS: Yeah, in the nineties. Tyler came in--he was very nice, and me and him wrote a song, and he owed me two, but they didn%u2019t want to shut down. We was at the Tampa Civic Center and they didn%u2019t want to close down the show. The writer had threatened to close down the show. The play was A Good Man is Hard to Find; that was the play. We did it in the afternoon. So that was quite an experience right there.
BG: So when did you settle in here in Cleveland County and Shelby?
BS: I settled here in [pause]--I started coming to Cleveland County in, like, %u201971. I was on the gospel circuit and we used to come to Holly Oak Park over here and it was one of the main stops. I was traveling with the Brooklyn All-Stars out of Brooklyn, New York and another group called the Gospelaires out of Dayton, Ohio. At the time, the Brooklyn All-Stars, they were [pause] Kirk Franklin, like that at that time. We were traveling with them and we came to Shelby; I never thought I would live here, but it was one of the stops on the gospel circuit. You did Shelby and you did Park Center in Charlotte. You know, it was a regular--and you came by every four or five months, and it was a good town for gospel singing. All the groups knew, even the secular groups knew it was a good town--venue, good venues were here, and fans. If you%u2019ve got fans, the artists will find you, for whatever. I don%u2019t know if they had better promoters here or better fans or whatever. I remember the first time I went to the Grady Cole Center. We used to have singers in Ohio, but not like that. I%u2019d never seen five and six thousand people for a gospel singing. We didn%u2019t have it like that in Ohio. [Laughter] You know, you would go to a small church or sometimes a storefront church, but we never sung to two or three thousand people. That just didn%u2019t happen. It was like a whole different world down here. I%u2019ll tell you something about Charlotte: when they have gospel singings, not only the church people, but the [pause]--I%u2019m trying to say a good word for your tape--players and the hustlers come too. It%u2019s an event; it%u2019s not just for Grandma for some reason. I really am serious. It%u2019s not only church--I say church people or Christians, but yeah, people come.
BG: I think everybody appreciates that spirit.
BS: Yeah, right, right.
BG: It can be a powerful thing, even if you don%u2019t consider yourself religious, per se.
BS: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Speaking of that, I met Paul Simon.
BG: Really?
BS: Yes, sir. I did a show with the Dixie Hummingbirds when %u201CLove Me Like a Rock%u201D was out, and he came to the show and sung with them. We were at the Scope in Norfolk and I met him--nice, nice fellow. He turned it out. By the way, the lead singer for the Dixie Hummingbirds, he died two weeks ago. His name was Ira Tucker; he was 84. Also, he was Stevie Wonder%u2019s father-in-law. They were out of Philly, the Dixie Hummingbirds, a famous, long-standing gospel group.
BG: Yeah, I lived in Philly for a long time so I know that just a little bit.
BS: I used to play the Met. You know the Met?
BG: Um-hmm.
BS: We played the Met.
BG: So what was it like playing here in Holly Oak Park in, say, the 1970s?
BS: Oh, the fans were wonderful and the spirit would move. They had some good singers here in Shelby.
BG: Can you remember who they were?
BS: Yes, sir, I know who they was! Back then, WLAC, Nashville, Tennessee, 1510; it goes all around the world, even today. We didn%u2019t have gospel internet, XM; you had to listen to WLAC, Nashville; John R., all of that; the Wolfman; you had to listen to that late at night, and you had to wait until they came in on the--at night. The sound got better at night; it was AM. So I heard these groups out of Shelby, North Carolina. They had a group that made %u201COperator: Long Distance.%u201D They%u2019re from here. The group that made the record is from here, and Manhattan Transfer, they changed some of it, but the original group was from here. Raymond, Raymond Bruton, he%u2019s my friend and we sung together for many years. He made the record %u201COperator: Long Distance.%u201D
BG: Okay.
BS: And another group from here, from Grover, North Carolina, really, the Gospel IQs, so they had famous recording groups from here that their music--they were national groups, but they lived here. Some of them, I knew the groups and their songs before I moved here, because you could hear them on the radio. I didn%u2019t know their faces. Like I said, we didn%u2019t have the video and all that then, but I knew who they were. The (29:17) brothers, Billy and Bobby, Raymond Bruton, and I%u2019m trying to think of his name, the name of their group. [Pause] Another man of history here for gospel singing: Benny Strickland. He%u2019s still singing; he%u2019s up in his seventies and he plays the piano and sings. Some of the great singers from around here didn%u2019t have records, but some of them did, so it%u2019s a sound, the southern quartet style, southern--The Blind Boys, that type of sound, that%u2019s the Shelby sound, and that%u2019s the groups who were popular here. The Swannee Quintet, The Blind Boys, The Mighty Clouds of Joy, the Soulsters, Sam Cooke, those type of groups, that%u2019s who were popular here that they went out to see, and still do. They%u2019re thinking about--we%u2019re going to build a big convention center here. That%u2019s going to be good. We%u2019ll be able to bring more groups in. This is still a popular town for singing. Last week, I was in Denny%u2019s and I seen a big bus outside--you%u2019re going to laugh--then I seen these guys, they had on Hawaiian-type shirts and they were sitting there eating, so I put that together with the bus and said, %u201CY%u2019all sing. Y%u2019all are a band.%u201D A guy looked at me and said, %u201CWe%u2019re the Florida Boys.%u201D I couldn%u2019t believe it. I said, %u201CThe Florida Boys!%u201D I just couldn%u2019t believe it, and they started singing!
BG: In Denny%u2019s?
BS: At Dennys. They started singing for me. I was going, %u201CWhoa!%u201D I couldn%u2019t believe it, man. They said, %u201CWe%u2019re the Florida%u201D--and they started singing. Now, you talk about making my week. [Laughter] But what happened was they hadn%u2019t changed their clothes. They had their stage clothes still on, and men don%u2019t usually go around dressed alike like that, right? So, I%u2019m going, %u201CThat%u2019s a band.%u201D Then they said, %u201CWe%u2019re the Florida Boys.%u201D I was just wild. Then they said, %u201CLet%u2019s hit one!%u201D Then they started singing and I sung with them. I wish I had a video. But can you imagine running into the Florida Boys at Denny%u2019s? I love it. There%u2019s a friend of mine, speaking of that southern gospel, it%u2019s a friend of mine; he played with me at Disney World; his name was Reggie Saddler, the Reggie Saddler Family. He%u2019s from here and he%u2019s one of the top in the southern gospel. What%u2019s unusual is there%u2019s not many black groups that%u2019s in the southern--and he%u2019s one of the--in that field, you know, like with the Gaithers. He%u2019s one of the top--.
BG: And does he still live here?
BS: He lives in a little town called Vale.
BG: Okay.
BS: Vale is [pause] thirty miles. It%u2019s Shelby, but more Hickory.
BG: Right.
BS: The Reggie Saddler Family. He%u2019s one of the top in the southern gospel field.
BG: So, your memories of playing here back in the day, now Holly Oak Park or other venues like that, you were playing for predominantly black audiences, I imagine.
BS: Yes, sir.
BG: Do you remember what the climate was here at that point in the late sixties or seventies? Racially, was it a tense place to be?
BS: I know our programs were segregated. When I come on the road in %u201971, we couldn%u2019t stay every place. They would have what you call boarding houses. You%u2019ve been to college; you know about that. We would stay there, and of course, when you travel, the other groups would help us. You know, you knew which ones they were. Then, they had predominantly black hotels that catered to black people. There were two famous hotels. One is in New York; it%u2019s called the President, and one is in Durham, called the Biltmore; it%u2019s torn down now. Well, you say, what makes them so famous? All the groups stayed there, so you could catch a ride. [Laughter] The Mighty Clouds of Joy are going to Florida, and you get on the bus with the Clouds, or you could just hang with the Clouds. Or you could share a room with--I%u2019ll give you a story. I had just come into the Brooklyn All-Stars--this is a great story for you--and they wanted me to get some lessons. Fats Domino was playing in Durham, right? So they bought him a jug of liquor. This is a true story, and he gave me lessons all night. He drunk the liquor and gave me--so I had lessons with Fats Domino at the Biltmore Hotel. At the time, Fats was a little over my--so I didn%u2019t know all this--he was showing me songs that I didn%u2019t know, but he showed me his groove and everything. I didn%u2019t know who Fats was. I grew up with the Temptations and the Motown, so I really didn%u2019t know Fats was from the fifties. I wasn%u2019t really--but it was cool, so I had lessons from Fats Domino and we stayed there all night and he was cool. I didn%u2019t know he was rich and famous and all like that, but he did, all night. They knew him--by all the black groups hanging out together, everybody knew everybody. The Drifters would take me to go to a show with them. Everybody--you stayed at the same hotels; it was almost like a fraternity. We had certain words we used, certain knocks at the hotel. [Laughter] BG: Do you remember any of the words or knocks?
BS: [Laughter] The knock was thump-thump, thump-thump-thump. That was the (36:51). You couldn%u2019t get in the room. That was the secret knock. We had secret words; [pause] a %u201Cchirper%u201D is a singer. A chirper was a singer. A %u201Chead%u201D was a woman. [Laughter] To %u201Cpeck,%u201D that%u2019s to eat. I%u2019m %u201Cpeckish%u201D to eat. %u201CCut%u201D is your money; cut, split--your money. Some are used now: a %u201Cyard,%u201D that was a hundred-dollar bill. Your guitar: your %u201Caxe.%u201D A %u201Cchild%u201D: that was somebody that wasn%u2019t good-looking.
BG: [Laughter] BS: He said, %u201CShe%u2019s a child.%u201D Then the guy would say, %u201CShe sure is!%u201D [Laughter] A child? Lord, have mercy, man. You%u2019re taking me back; that%u2019s taking me back. A %u201Cfee,%u201D that was a guy that it wasn%u2019t his craft. A fee was a guy, he wasn%u2019t acting professional; he didn%u2019t sing in a professional way; he just was an amateur. So an amateur plays for a fee; a professional plays for a contract. That was the lowest thing you could be was a fee. [Pause] So many, and nicknames and stuff. That was a good time. Funny stories--funny, funny stories. The Violinaires was at the Apollo and the Apollo has a mike that comes out of the floor, you know, like at Disney World. I played at Disney World and the stage comes up, right?
BG: Right.
BS: The mike comes out of the floor at the Apollo. This guy%u2019s got his Afro wig, ready to sing with the Violinaires out of Detroit. [Singing] %u201CChildren, are you ready? Yeah! Children, are you ready? Yeah!%u201D They would sing high, like women. So the mike comes up and hits his--[laughter] and that%u2019s the first song, right? That%u2019s their first song; he comes on stage and he leaves. (40:00) He left. Now, let%u2019s go to the Piedmont, the Piedmont blues. There%u2019s a lady out of Asheville, you already know her. It%u2019s a style here, with the Piedmont blues and the three-finger picking.
BG: Right, right.
BS: It%u2019s people here that all that style comes from here, to play blues on the slide guitar and all of that comes from here. One of the most famous guitar players is from here, and his name is Robert Lee Lattimore. He%u2019s from here and he was with a group called the Gospelaires.
BG: Robert Lee Lattimore, from--is he--?
BS: He%u2019s from right here, from right here in Shelby.
BG: Is he still around?
BS: I think Robert Lee is dead. His brother is a pastor. Floyd is a pastor in Cleveland. These groups, the Gospelaires and the Brooklyn All-Stars, some of the groups are hall-of-fame groups; they%u2019re not just--you know, gold record groups. Anyway, he%u2019s from here. I can play you one of the--I%u2019ve got the Gospelaires on Youtube and I%u2019ll let you hear Robert Lee. I love the Youtube.
BG: Yeah, there%u2019s a lot good stuff there, huh?
BS: Yeah, yeah. I%u2019ve got a Youtube with the Mighty Clouds from 1964.
BG: Really?
BS: %u201964.
BG: Now is that before your time?
BS: Yeah, yeah, right. Well, I was a young man.
BG: Yeah.
BS: They came to Dayton in %u201964.
BG: Now, you have spanned the sacred and secular world%u2026
BS: %u2026I did both. Yes, sir%u2026
BG: %u2026of music. Was that common? Did a lot of folks do that? Were audiences mixed or were they separate worlds?
BS: No, because the church people--for instance, I%u2019ll tell you my grandfather--Marvin Gaye%u2019s daddy was a preacher--they sung together, my grandfather and Marvin Gaye%u2019s dad. So when you started singing in the club, the church people didn%u2019t want you sing. You weren%u2019t expected to sing in the church; they wouldn%u2019t even allow you. If they even heard you were singing in the club, they wouldn%u2019t allow you. Not that you wouldn%u2019t want to. We were playing in the band and I would pay my tithes out of my club money. I was taught to pay my tithes and go to church, but I think the secular people, the club people didn%u2019t have much problem with it because sometimes it would be the same people. But the church people, the real strict people, maybe like the Pentecostal people--I know you know this: some churches are stricter than others. No reflection, but maybe in an Episcopal church, they might let some things go that they wouldn%u2019t let go in the Pentecostal church or the Evangelical church. You know what I%u2019m saying? It just depends on your church. For instance, when %u201COh, Happy Day%u201D was out--you probably were a young man--they jumped on the Hawkins Family. They thought they had went too far. Kirk Franklin, some people, they%u2019d say he was the devil. Believe it or not, the guy that started gospel music, his name is Thomas Dorsey; he%u2019s from Chicago.
BG: Yeah, he played the blues.
BS: Yeah, he played with Ma Rainey. So what he did, when he started it, he brought that swing, he had that blues and so he brought it--[singing] %u201CI was standing by the bedside of a neighbor,%u201D so he brought that swing, because he had played the blues--[singing] %u201CPraise the Lord, take my hand, lead me on.%u201D So he brought that swing with him because that%u2019s what he had in his heart. But a lot of people started with it; I could start naming them: Al Green, he struggles; Little Richard; Ray Charles didn%u2019t really struggle singing the gospel and the R&B. What he did, Ray Charles would go in a church and hear a song and then change the words and people thought that was just--. The folk in the nightclub, and I hate to say this, but white folk, they thought it was something new. He was taking church songs and changing the words. And y%u2019all said, %u201COh, that is so fresh. That is so--.%u201D We had a fit %u2018cause we would know the original song where he was stealing from and y%u2019all thought he was--the genius of Ray Charles. You could hear it at any church. He was taking the songs of people like the Dixie Hummingbirds and James Cleveland and the Blind Boys, %u2018cause that%u2019s all he studied. And he would change their words. [Singing] %u201CUnchain my heart, unchain my heart,%u201D just like you were in church. But it was the music critics--%u201COh, he is so--he is so wonderful.%u201D [Laughter] You know what, that%u2019s the same thing, believe it or not, that%u2019s what happened to Motown. They heard the tambourine, and the tambourine would be going--. They%u2019d say, %u201CWhat%u2019s that sound?%u201D %u2018cause they had never really been to church before. Many had been to church, but their churches wasn%u2019t swinging. Well, you think about the Temptations, just a regular quartet group, when you really [singing] %u201CI%u2019ve got sunshine,%u201D that%u2019s the role of the preacher, [singing] %u201Con a cloudy day.%u201D That%u2019s the preacher, you know, but if you ain%u2019t never heard that sound, it%u2019s fresh to you. I heard some critics say whatever new sound is coming, it will come out of the church too. Not just the old sound of Thomas Dorsey, but whatever we%u2019re coming forward with, the next thing, it%u2019ll come out of the church. It always has, you know. You know what I%u2019m saying?
BG: Yeah.
BS: Whatever evolves from--if it%u2019s classical, blues, or whatever, whatever the next step is--. Just the gospel now is becoming more complex--the new cats. In fact, I did a tour of Europe and what we%u2019re playing on the radio, they don%u2019t have a clue, %u2018cause they still want to hear Mahalia. They ain%u2019t got a clue what we play over here. I%u2019m serious [laughter]. They was asking for %u201CAmazing Grace%u201D and Mahalia and %u201CThe Saints Go Marching In.%u201D
BG: Right, right.
BS: You know, we gave it to them, but that was their request. We would do a whole show, then they would ask us for %u201CSaints.%u201D
BG: They wanted to recognize something.
BS: Right, right. [Laughter] Right, right.
BG: That%u2019s interesting. You know, you hear about folks in the sixties and seventies, I mean Sam Cooke, Solomon Burke, James Carr, Arthur Alexander, some of my favorite soul singers who started out in the church, and some of them had real struggles moving between those worlds.
BS: That%u2019s right, that%u2019s right.
BG: Was it a struggle for you personally? Has it been?
BS: Yes, sir, at times, at times, especially for me because I had been on staff with the deacons and the pastors. It%u2019s a scripture in the Bible, %u201CChoose ye this day whom ye shall serve,%u201D so it has affected, really, my--I don%u2019t think it has affected my role as a Christian. I think it has affected what people--you know, you don%u2019t want to do anything to stumble anybody else, if that%u2019s making sense. %u2018Cause I%u2019ve played weddings, and I%u2019d do Mariah Carey and Whitney Houston. I mean, I do secular music and do it good. In fact, believe it or not, some churches you can%u2019t sing secular songs, even at weddings. Are you familiar?
BG: Yeah.
BS: Yeah, right. I think my struggle would be--I had a struggle here. This was a brown-bagging town. I was playing a restaurant and they put liquor in the restaurant. I had to struggle, so you know, am I going to stay? I stayed, but are you going to play when they start selling liquor? I think it%u2019s cool and I don%u2019t think as a Christian, probably as an entertainer, you don%u2019t need to be there getting wasted with your customers. I just don%u2019t think that%u2019s right. Speaking of my dad, back in the day, not just being a Christian, back in the day, when you took your breaks--well, even today at some of these country clubs, you can%u2019t sit with the people. They%u2019ll bring you food to the dressing room today, or they%u2019ll fix you a plate to go, but they won%u2019t let you sit. You know, like you have a break, do you know what I mean?
BG: Um-hmm
BS: They won%u2019t--%u201CWe%u2019ll bring y%u2019all food back in the dressing room.%u201D Me and my wife, we were down in Chester, South Carolina at one of those fancy, you know, play the wedding reception, upscale. Very, very upscale, and we had to eat in the kitchen.
BG: Really?
BS: They brought us the same food but we had to eat in the kitchen. I%u2019m not talking about 1908.
BG: Is this a predominantly white country club?
BS: White, yes, sir.
BG: Yeah.
BG: Yes, sir, we had to eat in the kitchen. Some hotels, white or black, they don%u2019t want you to mingle with the customers. They want you to play the show and go to your room, but they don%u2019t want you to mingle with the customers. You can be white or black, it don%u2019t really matter. But at that time, that was a white wedding. I play a lot of white weddings for some reason. I%u2019ve been at black affairs where you play, but you%u2019re not really part of the celebration. I play a lot of dinners, being a piano player, where they don%u2019t feed you. They feel like, %u201CIf we pay you, we%u2019re not going to give you any coffee; we%u2019re not going to give you any drinks or nothing. Do you play?
BG: I play banjo and some bass. When I was really a little kid I played saxophone, but today, mostly banjo and bass guitar.
BS: Do you do the three-finger picking kind of style that came from Shelby?
BG: Folks have been trying to teach me when I%u2019ve been here. I%u2019m not that fast; I play mostly two fingers.
BS: [Laughter] BG: Or, you know, the old clawhammer style?
BS: Oh, yeah you%u2019ve got to learn that since you%u2019re here.
BG: Yeah, right. [Laughter] It%u2019s interesting. All those styles, they say, all those banjo styles, either the Scruggs style or the frailing or the clawhammer style, they say that came originally from black banjo players around here. It was way back.
BS: Okay.
BG: That%u2019s something that I%u2019d love to know more about in this area, but folks don%u2019t seem to remember black string bands.
BS: Well, I know a lady that can play a harmonica in the black harmonica blues. That was really popular. Then I know the lady--it%u2019s a lot of harmonica--that seems to be%u2026
BG: %u2026That%u2019s big here?
BS: That%u2019s big with the older crew.
BG: What are some of their names?
BS: Well, they don%u2019t play any more.
BG: They%u2019re not playing any more.
BS: Annie, Annie Homesley, she plays--. I%u2019m not saying that right; she can play now, but they don%u2019t play out for people. I know her because she%u2019s my friend; she plays for me.
BG: Annie Homesley?
BS: Yeah.
BG: I%u2019m going to write that down. [Pause] See, that%u2019s something that--nobody%u2019s even mentioned that to me that harmonica was really big around here.
BS: Oh, yeah, that%u2019s big. For the people that%u2019s seventy and eighty, that%u2019s big, big, big.
We used to play down at the Shelby Music Center, Mr. John Reid, did you ever--?
BG: Yeah, I know John. I met him yesterday.
BS: Okay, his daddy and them, you could go down there and they would play and we%u2019d sit around and play with them. I wasn%u2019t good, but we%u2019d sit around and they%u2019d teach me the songs. There would always be four or five; they%u2019d sit in chairs like this in the music store, and I thought it was just wonderful. I%u2019d go down there and sit for hours. You know, some of them was retired and they would do that, play the bluegrass and the country songs. I would sing and they would play, and I would pick up some chords from them. That was a great time, great time. They were like my mentors and my teacher. I%u2019d take some of them songs and then I would go and play them when I would go out. The Carolina and the country style came to me. Then I have another great friend, Steve Leatherwood. Did you talk to him?
BG: I%u2019m going to see him tomorrow morning.
BS: That%u2019s my friend. They do a live thing, bluegrass. So they%u2019re really keeping it alive. I go to him and we play together. He recorded my choir, my senior choir, and we made a little demo to go. He is a good friend. He%u2019s my rock %u2018n%u2019 roll doctor; he%u2019s a doctor in the daytime, rock %u2018n%u2019 roll man at night. He%u2019s my friend. I mean, Steve%u2019s my good friend. They do a live show with the country and the bluegrass. He brings everybody here--New River, he brings everybody here. I guess you see I love that style. I love the style. I don%u2019t know if you play that style. You know the movie with the gospel music, George Clooney and them? The movie?
BG: Which one? With gospel? A George Clooney film with gospel music?
BS: He is a gospel--.
BG: I don%u2019t know what George Clooney film that is.
BS: What%u2019s the guy? And they go to get his kids, that movie.
BG: Oh, O Brother, Where Art Thou?
BS: Yeah, that%u2019s what it is. I love that movie. I love it; that%u2019s my movie. I love it; I love that movie. That%u2019s a great movie.
BG: There%u2019s some good music in that one.
BS: Yes, sir, I love it, man. I love it. I made a movie. Do you know these ladies--you might have because they%u2019re from Raleigh, the Delaney sisters? They lived to be a hundred years%u2026
BG: %u2026No, I don%u2019t know them%u2026
BS: %u2026that made the plays about them. I did their music. I did their music for the movie. We did %u201CIf I go to church on Sunday, get drunk all day Monday, it ain%u2019t no business but my own.%u201D [Laughter] You know the blues tune?
BG: Um-hmm.
BS: We did that for the movie. We did a nightclub scene. We made the movie in Charlotte. [Interruption] I tell you what I%u2019d like to do.
BG: What%u2019s that?
BS: When you get through with this, I want to make a book about the gospel [Interruption] music in the sixties, why some of the guys still--you know, with the famous ones. I%u2019ve got the connection and it%u2019s a big--I think it will go pretty good.
BG: Yeah, that%u2019s a world I%u2019m really interested in, that history. I%u2019d like to know more about it.
BS: We can even study, like you said, from the secular to the--.
BG: So, in this area, other than those harmonica players that you mentioned, do you know of other blues musicians, blues guitarists and things from--? You know, you hear of the Piedmont guitarists over from Durham, Blind Boy Fuller and those guys, and then%u2026
BS: %u2026We don%u2019t have any famous--the most famous girl is the black lady and I can%u2019t tell you her name, but she%u2019s (59:43). I can%u2019t think of her name, but she%u2019s with the North Carolina--she%u2019s an older lady; she%u2019s in her nineties, and she%u2019s with the arts people. She was on the--you know what I%u2019m talking about, their chart?
BG: Okay.
BS: Their artists, she%u2019s a North Carolina Performing Artist.
BG: Yeah, right.
BS: You can go on their website. If you do, maybe I could tell you her name.
BG: I mean, there was Etta Baker I remember%u2026
BS: %u2026That%u2019s her%u2026
BG: %u2026but she passed on.
BS: But she%u2019s the only one I knew.
BG: Yeah, and she was an amazing musician.
BS: Yeah, I played some shows with her.
BG: Really? Yeah, she passed on last year.
BS: Her daughter used to take her around. She could play, sing.
BG: I saw her play once and it was great. It was terrific.
BS: So you already knew the people I would put you on.
BG: Well, some of them, but there%u2019s always more folks.
BS: There%u2019s one guy that you%u2019d like: his name was Sam Raper. He%u2019s a millionaire; that%u2019s a story there. He married me and he was the moderator of the Cleveland County--the Baptist Association and he was the city councilman. I don%u2019t know if he%u2019s still on city council or not. But anyway, he was a quartet singer.
BG: Okay.
BS: Before he became a millionaire.
BG: [Laughter] BS: That don%u2019t happen too much.
BG: No, it doesn%u2019t.
BS: He knows all the old groups and all the old musicians. He%u2019s ninety-three, ninety-four, but his mind is still--you know, as a preacher, you%u2019ve got a good mind, so he can help you even with the songs.
BG: Yeah.
BS: Also, he knows the history of Cleveland County %u2018cause he lived it. Sometimes he gets up and just talks about the history and the people. He can do that two or three hours. Sam Raper, Reverend Sam Raper, and he%u2019s a great--he%u2019s a historian. He%u2019s known as a historian. By the way, Sister Alma, did I say Alma, Sister Alma? That%u2019s his member; he%u2019ll have her number. Alma Homesley, that%u2019s his church member. Their church, by the way, if you call Mt. Calvary Baptist Church and ask to speak to Reverend Littlejohn, he%u2019ll give you their phone numbers.
BG: Reverend Littlejohn?
BS: Yes, sir.
BG: Okay
BS: It ain%u2019t but two or three blocks from here.

BG: Is that your church too?

BS: That%u2019s my wife%u2019s church. I%u2019ll get you some numbers. I can help you while you%u2019re here. But be sure to talk to Reverend Raper because%u2026
BG: %u2026And his last name is spelled R-A-P-I-E-R or--?
BS: R-A-P-E-R. I%u2019ll get all these numbers for you here. [Interruption while Mr. Stephens looks up numbers] BG: So what%u2019s your church?
BS: Okay, my church is Lawndale First Baptist.
BG: Lawndale?
BS: Yes, sir.
BG: Lawndale First Baptist. [Pause] And do you play for them?
BS: No, sir. I%u2019m retired. [Recorder turned off and back on] You know, when you%u2019re a musician or you%u2019re in the--I%u2019m kind of in the background; I write. They only pay attention to the lead singers.
BG: Yeah.
BS: They don%u2019t--.
BG: And you%u2019re more on the writing, recording, and--.
BS: Right, right.
BG: Okay. The arranging side of things.
BS: Yes, sir.
BG: So what records can I hear you on?
BS: All of their records; they%u2019ve got about thirty.
BG: What other records should I look for?
BS: Oh, and I%u2019ve got a new record. You got a burner?
BG: Well, actually, I have my computer on me, so I can load it onto my computer. That would be great. Thank you. [Interruption while CDs are loaded onto the computer, then recorder turned off and back on.] Second CD begins -
BG: So you%u2019ve been in Shelby now for what, thirty years or so?
BS: Thirty, yes, sir. On and off since %u201972. Yes, living here since %u201972 or so, yes sir.
BG: Yeah, living here since %u201972.
BS: Yes, sir. It%u2019s been a wonderful town, a wonderful town. I%u2019ve enjoyed it. I stayed down South; came down South and stayed down South. It%u2019s typical northern--Northerner.
BG: Yeah, I feel the same way. I grew up outside Boston and then Philadelphia, so I came down and I kind of want to stick around too.
BS: Yes, sir. I%u2019d read about the culture and learn about the culture, and studied. You know, they made that Birth of a Nation--did you ever--?
BG: Yeah, he wrote that here, right? That%u2019s scary.
BS: The other book, the book too. I%u2019m trying to think of the name. So all of that%u2019s here.
BG: Yeah, that%u2019s negative history, unfortunately.
BS: Yeah, so we don%u2019t need that. I tell you, this might interest you: a hundred of the greatest writers in the country live within a hundred miles. For whatever reason, between here and Forest City, this is a place for the artists and the writers. Well, it%u2019s a place where writers feel like they can grow, for whatever (1:47) or other writers. From Asheville on up, all around this area within a hundred miles of us. I don%u2019t even say a hundred miles--within fifty miles or so. They did a survey [Laughter]. This figures, I guess, the popular writers.
BG: Yeah, that%u2019s interesting.
BS: You can start with people, some like painters, Timberlake and people like that. Then they have a lot of artists%u2019 communes up this way, where you can go and get with other guys and they steal your ideas. [Laughter] You go to the workshop and then you hear your song on the radio.
BG: I have a couple more questions if you don%u2019t mind.
BS: No, no problem.
BG: I%u2019m interested in a moment, I guess when you were still quite a young man, though it continued, in the civil rights struggle in that era, I%u2019m interested in the role that you think both gospel music and secular music, soul music, played in that period.
BS: I think the greatest song we sing a lot right now, Obama%u2019s theme song, that %u201CA Change is Going to Come.%u201D That%u2019s Obama%u2019s theme song. Sam Cooke, many people don%u2019t realize this, that Sam Cooke was already rich and famous when he left the gospel field. He wanted more. He was with the #1 gospel--. When he went to the pop music, he was the #1 gospel singer in the country, you know, with the #1 group. He just wanted more, for whatever reason, but he wasn%u2019t struggling. Some of the gospel groups, as you know, struggle. You know, they eat bologna meat and stuff like that, but Sam Cooke was not struggling. [Laughter] I guess he felt like he had went to the highest of what he could do in the church field, but that change is going to come. To me, that really identifies with the civil rights as the gospel. And also, Mahalia did a lot of the march on Washington, and she was our hero, especially at my house because my grandfather was her announcer. I didn%u2019t tell you this story, did I? My grandfather was a Pentecostal, singing, dancing, shouting preacher. He was supposed to come out and pray and introduce Mahalia, but he was coming out and turning out the house. You don%u2019t upstage the star. He was supposed to pray, %u201CAnd now, ladies and gentlemen, here%u2019s Mahalia.%u201D He was coming out dancing, speaking in tongues, so she fired him; she fired my grandfather.
BG: How long did he last?
BS: Oh, he did about two months, three months, but you can%u2019t do that. You%u2019re supposed to--I%u2019m not the one; where John said, %u201CI%u2019m not the one. There%u2019s one coming after me.%u201D And %u201CMahalia, I know you%u2019re all waiting on Mahalia, and she%u2019s coming up,%u201D but you%u2019re not supposed to turn out the house. I have done that in my day, and I%u2019ve had to learn. I had to learn. I have done that. I should have learned that from my granddaddy, but--. They want you to support them; they don%u2019t want you to shine at all. This might help you when you start going into another band. [Laughter] BG: Yeah.
BS: In my life as a gospel singer, if I was in a mixed band; I played in some mixed bands before, and we would send the white cats to get the room. True story, honest. Then we would all get in there. Back in the day, everybody didn%u2019t have their own room. You know, two or three to the room, but we%u2019d send the white cat to get the room. I don%u2019t just want to talk about discrimination against blacks, but some hotels didn%u2019t want musicians at all. So the white cat would act like he was a businessman or a salesman or something, then we would get--when we had the room, they couldn%u2019t put us out. You had two strikes against you: you were black and you was a musician. I don%u2019t know which one was worse. Sometimes people that work blue-collar jobs or doctors and stuff--doctors aren%u2019t blue-collar, I%u2019m just saying--sometimes my brother and them call them civilians. They don%u2019t understand us soldiers, musician soldiers [laughter]. And musicians don%u2019t like people that work on jobs, and people that work on jobs don%u2019t like musicians. It%u2019s a mutual hatred [laughter] %u2018cause they don%u2019t think you%u2019re doing no work, and maybe you think they%u2019re not creative or whatever, so it%u2019s a mutual loathing [laughter]. I saw that. We would stop at truck stops and we%u2019d have to fight sometimes. One thing, Brooklyn All-Stars, we pulled up in a big Greyhound semi-cruiser, and we would be nice. We had a rule that we would dress, even at the hotels, we had a rule you could get a fine if you wasn%u2019t dressed. When you said Brooklyn All-Stars, we wanted people to see--now, you didn%u2019t have to have on a tie or suit all the time, but you try to be dressed. So we would go into truck stops like that and we had to fight sometimes, or %u201CWe%u2019re not going to serve you%u201D; we had that, but sometimes we had to fight. See, with the bus, you couldn%u2019t get gas everywhere with the diesel. I mean, really fist-fight, or you%u2019d wait two hours before they served you, all that kind of stuff. [Pause] Sometimes we didn%u2019t eat. Well, we were lucky to, so if the hotels didn%u2019t let us in, we could sleep on the bus. Everybody didn%u2019t have it like that. If you had a car, you had to wash on the side of the road or in the rest area. You know, we would wash up in a restroom; we would take turns doing it at a gas station, wash up in the restroom. To be honest too, sometimes we didn%u2019t have money to check in the hotel. Sometimes we couldn%u2019t if we had the money and sometimes we just didn%u2019t have the money. %u2018Cause it%u2019s not like today; we lived out there. We lived in the bus. You know, they would turn the bus off in the wintertime, so you had to sleep in your clothes.
BG: To keep warm.
BS: Yeah.
BG: So when did you start slowing down or stopping your touring schedule?
BS: A lot of the gospel groups, not when you%u2019re singing in nightclubs--well, even in nightclubs, but the gospel groups, their main shows are on Sunday. If you%u2019re playing for a church, you can%u2019t go to Mississippi, so I had to make a choice. I%u2019m glad you said that. I was working at Disney World, flying here on Sunday to play.
BG: Whoa, really?
BS: [Laughter] I was working at Disney World, flying back here. I wasn%u2019t making any money %u2018cause it was costing me two or three hundred dollars. I was robbing Peter to pay Paul, but I was trying to keep my--I was at the First Baptist Church in Lawndale and I was working at Disney World.
BG: Now what were you doing at Disney World?
BS: Singing and dancing--R&B.
BG: Okay.
BS: You know beach music?
BG: Yeah.
BS: I played with Janice.
BG: Okay.
BS: Well, first it was the Reggie Saddler Revue, but then Janice. Played at Disney. I played at every club up and down Chapel Hill, every club up and down in Chapel Hill [pause] and Raleigh--frat parties.
BG: Yeah, that%u2019s kind of what beach music was about.
BS: Frat parties! [Laughter] That was it.
BG: Now had you heard of beach music before you came here?
BS: I had played it but I hadn%u2019t heard it.
BG: I had never heard that label.
BS: The label, oh yeah. We had played the Drifters and %u201CUp On The Roof%u201D and %u201CStand By Me.%u201D
BG: It%u2019s just R&B.
BS: It%u2019s just R&B to me, %u2018cause we had an R&B station. What they tell me that in the South, you couldn%u2019t hear R&B until you went to the beach, and that%u2019s why they called it beach music. You had it at your house or in your car, but you couldn%u2019t get it on the radio. Once you got to the beach, the story goes that you had like-minded souls that would get together with the shagging and you could hear your groups. You could see the groups that you had heard on the radio. You know, the Drifters wasn%u2019t coming to Lincolnton. [Laughter] But you could see them at Myrtle Beach, or the Tams were real popular.
BG: Yeah, I%u2019ve spoken to the Tams.
BS: Shoot, Delbert McClinton.
BG: He was a strange addition to the beach music canon for me. I didn%u2019t understand how that fit in.
BS: The blues; it%u2019s the shuffle.
BG: But it%u2019s the blues, the shuffle.
BS: The shuffle. It%u2019s the blues. More so than--you know, it%u2019s that beat. But it%u2019s a whole industry. By the way, in that genre, the Chairmen are the top. In fact, the Chairmen own other groups.
BG: I didn%u2019t know that.
BS: They very, very, very, much, much--they own and the write for other groups and they own other bands. You know, %u201CWe can%u2019t come but we%u2019ll send you--.%u201D Yeah, they own an agency. You ought to get with them.
BG: Yeah, I spoke to General Johnson.
BS: You know, he%u2019s hall-of-fame.
BG: Yeah.
BS: He%u2019s hall-of-fame in beach music and in rock %u2018n%u2019 roll.
BG: He%u2019s written some great songs.
BS: Yes, sir, he%u2019s something. He writes for other people. He come out of Motown. He writes for everybody. Yeah, I was playing at First Baptist Lawndale--you%u2019ll appreciate this. I played a gig on the Boardwalk. This ain%u2019t been long ago; this has been five, six years ago. It ain%u2019t been long ago. Played the boardwalk Saturday night; came home from Myrtle Beach, North Myrtle Beach, down there in, you know; come home--I was at the Spanish Galleon, and come home and made Lawndale and went back and made the Spanish Galleon that Sunday. [Laughter] BG: A busy man.
BS: Yeah, I sure did. I did that. But that was the same thing that was going on at Disney World, but I was going to tell you at Disney World it was an Easter and I had to make a choice to fly back to Lawndale, and I did because it was Easter, and then they fired me at Disney World. It was a big day at the church and it was a big day at--it was Easter, %u201983 Easter.
BG: Now, have you been able to support yourself with music pretty much all the way or you had other jobs as well?
BS: I did other things. I was a substitute teacher.
BG: Really?
BS: Yes, sir.
BG: Where?
BS: All around the county. You know, you don%u2019t ever know. You pick up your phone and they tell you where to go. I do music lessons. I%u2019m getting ready to do one in a minute. I write, as you see. I write for famous gospel groups: John P. Kee, the Brooklyn All-Stars, Ronnie Diamond. Ronnie Diamond is my brother; I didn%u2019t even tell you that, but from the Ohio Players and Zap and Lakeside; he%u2019s my brother, my baby brother. Right, Ronnie Diamond is my brother. I write for him; I write for the Ridley Angels; I write for the Gospel IQs of Grover; I write for so many people. Then James Cleveland, you know James Cleveland? He has choirs all over the country, these chapters, and it%u2019s fifty thousand, and one chapter is in Charlotte and I write for that. That%u2019s under James Cleveland Gospel Music Workshop America. [Interview ends when a student arrives for a lesson. The remainder of the recording is recorded music playing during the lesson.]

END OF INTERVIEW
Mike Hamrick, July 24th, 2010
Edited by: Shannon Blackley
February 16, 2011
Sound quality: good