CLAYTENNA AND SANDRANETTE CAMP

TRANSCRIPT %u2013CLAYTENNA AND SANDRANETTE CAMP
[Compiled August 21st, 2009]

Interviewee: CLAYTENNA AND SANDRANETTE CAMP

Interviewer: Joy Scott

Interview Date: February 23rd, 2009

Location: Camp Home

Length: Approximately 52 minutes

JOY SCOTT: If you could state your name--your full name for the record.
SANDRANETTE CAMP: Sandranette Camp.
JS: Sandranette Camp. And Claytenna?
CLAYTENNA CAMP: Claytenna Camp.
JS: Claytenna Camp. And we are at the home of Sandranette and Claytenna Camp regarding--and this interview is regarding Camp School. Today is February 23rd, 2009. My name is Joy Scott. Okay. All right, so let%u2019s start with some history about Camp School. When was Camp School started?
CC: We don%u2019t know the date.
JS: Okay. Do you know how long it was in existence?
SC: I don%u2019t know exactly. When I started here--I started there in sixty [paused]--I started in %u201963. . . . was an assistant then and we had the old building and the present building now. So, I know it was there before then because it started out as a white--old, white building. Then, as years progressed, they went to another brick building. It had grades one through twelve.
JS: Grades one through twelve, okay. Now, you two have the last name Camp. What is your relation to the founder?
SC: Our grandfather.
JS: Your grandfather. And his full name?
SC: Jim Camp--they called him Jim; the name was James Camp, James C. Camp. They knew him as Jim Camp.
JS: Okay. So he started the school?
SC: Yes, he donated the land for the school to be built. He donated it to the county.
JS: Okay. And is he still living?
SC: No, he%u2019s not.
JS: Okay. And when did he pass?
SC: In %u201958.
JS: So, Camp School started as%u2026
CC: %u2026No, I%u2019m just thinking; I%u2019m trying to calculate some stuff.
JS: I thought you were raising you hand. You had that one finger like--[laughed]. Okay, so he started Camp School. He donated the land to the county.
SC: Right.
JS: And it was named after him.
SC: After him.
JS: Did he hold any positions within Camp School?
SC: No.
JS: No? Okay. Now, so it was predominantly black.
SC: Predominantly black.
JS: Okay, so you started attending in sixty--?
SC: Well, %u201966-%u201967. I was six years old and I was born in %u201957, so it was %u201963 then? %u201963.
JS: %u201963?
SC: Yeah, %u201963, %u2018cause I was six years old. I was there for three years. Then, when integration came, I went to Earl. I went to Earl after--for my fourth grade.
JS: Okay. So, what was it like attending Camp School?
SC: I enjoyed it because you saw kids of all ages. I was a first-grader and I--you saw the high school students. You had big brothers and big sisters then. I used to like to play on the playgrounds and go to the [ ] with the more advanced students were--the seniors and the juniors.
JS: Any fond--fond memories--fondest of memories?
SC: I don%u2019t want to answer that [laughed].
CC: Going back to a previous question--about how long, because I know a lady that went there and she%u2019s eighty-five years old now. So, she went there, and just calculating back, and Camp School probably stopped being in existence in %u201967, or something like that. Uh, 1967, %u2018cause I didn%u2019t--I didn%u2019t go. I started out at Earl. So, I want to say it existed anywhere between thirty and forty years, based on this other lady%u2019s age.
JS: Um-hmm.
SC: Well, when I went to Earl, Camp School was still in existence at that time %u2018cause I had some friends going to Camp at that time. Then, a couple of years after that, they started changing the names of the schools, from Camp School to South Cleveland.
JS: Okay. So, kind of walk me through this. Camp School--integration happens--Camp School is still in existence%u2026
SC: %u2026Yes%u2026
JS: %u2026but you got changed to Earl.
SC: Yeah. My father, you know, he wanted us to go with the flow of the integration, and so we went to Earl. And if I%u2019m not mistaken, about two years later they started changing the names of all the black schools. From Camp to South Cleveland, from Green Bethel to West, from Douglas to Central--.
CC: And Cleveland--Cleveland stayed the same.
SC: I think the school in Polkville went to North, and Cleveland was still Cleveland. It%u2019s in Shelby.
JS: So, although you weren%u2019t still attending Camp School, did you hear from other students what it was like post-integration?
SC: Well, they were sort of leery about the move, about integration, and I had to tell them how it was going to school with white students at that time. So, later on, when integration started [paused], it was longer than that because I left Earl and went to Number Three in the fifth and sixth grade. Camp was still in existence because I came to South Cleveland in the seventh grade; that%u2019s when it changed--changed the schools when I went to the seventh grade %u2018cause I went to South Cleveland in the seventh and eighth grade. So, from the time I was in the third--from the fourth grade--Camp School is still in existence up through my sixth year--sixth grade.
JS: Okay. So the children, post-integration, who still attended Camp School, they were the ones who were kind of fearful about Camp School--I mean, about integration?
SC: About integration.
JS: Okay. Had they said that anything had really changed at Camp School since integration?
SC: No, a lot of the teachers there had started to move from there and going to the other schools. You know, because they were needing teachers in the other schools. But Camp was still there until they changed it over to South Cleveland. That%u2019s when everything changed.
JS: Now tell me a little bit about Mr. Camp, about his character.
SC: Well, when he died, I was a year old. So, you need to talk to someone else that really knew him. But, like I say, I was the first-born and I was born in %u201957; he died in %u201958.
JS: Okay.
SC: So, I mean, they would tell me a story about things I used to do, and he used to do with me, but no, I was littler then; I don%u2019t remember, but I%u2019ve been told about those things.
CC: I was told that he was more of a--maybe the right word is innovator. When he donated the land to the county, or the county to build a school for blacks, and the initial--that was what it was for. That%u2019s why he donated the land. From my understanding, he really didn%u2019t want the school named after him, but they did it because he donated it. You know, %u2018cause I%u2019ve asked people questions about him in the past; my cousin had told me some things that he remembered from him. From listening to my cousin, he seemed to be, like I say, an innovator--a changer. You know, at that time, a lot of things was going on and he wanted to be a part of that change. Like the fair--he was a part of the fair, the black fair. Also, from my understanding of records, with the property that he did own, that was something that kind of stayed with him as well. So, from my understanding, he was more of an innovator, a changer who wants to change things, make things move, do the right thing that needs to be done.
JS: Now what did he do for a living?
CC and SC (in unison): Farmed.
JS: He was a farmer.
CC: Um-hmm.
SC: He was a farmer.
JS: Okay. So how much land was donated?
CC: From my understanding, I%u2019m not sure how many acres. I%u2019m going to say five.
JS: Um-hmm.
CC: Because--and when you take a picture, you%u2019ll get to see it. From where they kind of played, like a football field now, that was where that white--the white building that she was talking about was. Then they built the other school; then they built the library and it goes even further back. So, I%u2019m going to say roughly five acres.
JS: Okay.
SC: Then it comes down this way to the pond, the border of the pond.
JS: Okay. Now did anyone ever tell you why he wanted to donate that school--that land for the school?
CC: From my understanding from people, and all this is hearsay; from my understanding from people, at that time there needed to be a black school here in this area for blacks. That%u2019s why he did it, so they would have a school to go to because even with my father--he went to Camp for a while, then he went to Cleveland to finish up. I%u2019m not sure how, at that time how it was--what was the grades to Camp, but after you reached another grade, I think you had to go to the city to finish up. So, he actually went to Cleveland to finish.
JS: So, he actually attended the school that he donated the land to build?
CC: No, that%u2019s my father--my father.
JS: Your father?
CC: My father.
JS: Okay. Okay, I%u2019m getting it--y%u2019all have different--different fathers--you%u2019re the%u2026
CC: %u2026Hm-umm. My grandfather donated the land.
JS: I%u2019m sorry.
CC: My father attended.
JS: Okay.
CC: Okay? Because, in donating the land, he--I guess he felt like it needed to be a school--I guess there wasn%u2019t a school here in this area, so he donated the land so they would be able to build a school for blacks in this area.
JS: Did he--now you said that you were one when he passed away?
SC: I was one when he passed, yes.
JS: Okay. So, you--and so, Claytenna, you weren%u2019t even born?
CC: I%u2019ve just been asking questions. I just ask questions about him, like you%u2019re, you know [laughed].
JS: Okay [laughed].
SC: I%u2019m the oldest. She wasn%u2019t here.
JS: Okay.
CC: I just asked--the information I received was from my cousin and other people that went to Camp, like the lady that I was talking about. She%u2019s eighty-five years old and I know she attended Camp, and there%u2019s quite a few people around here that attended Camp that%u2019s old enough to be our parents or grandparents. So, and I%u2019ve talked--I%u2019ve asked questions throughout--over the years, about the school and about my grandfather.
JS: What%u2019s the most interesting thing that you%u2019ve learned about the school?
CC: The school--I went to the school to play. You know, when they%u2019d have certain things, I was just over there playing. I didn%u2019t attend, but just as a child playing around. I always thought it was interesting--the thing that really upset me about the school--and I was between the age of six and nine, when they started changing the schools. I remember, I overheard--I felt the conversation between my parents about when they started filling the--about when they started changing %u2018cause it was a big thing about Camp School at that time. A big issue, because from my understanding of that, %u2018cause I was in the car; they was discussing it and I felt like something was getting ready to happen to our family. But, from my understanding, the reason they changed the schools--the other schools, like Green Bethel, was part of the church. It was named after Green Bethel%u2019s church. So, the other schools wasn%u2019t really named after a family; Camp was, and I think that%u2019s when the schools%u2014that%u2019s when they decided to start changing the names. It has something to do with that because I remember the conversations with my mother and father, and I felt like, %u201CWe%u2019re Camps%u201D; I got that part; something about that school, and there was some tension and stuff--you know, some uncomfortableness. I kind of felt that through them. So, I think that%u2019s when the names really changed; they decided they was going to change Camp; they need to change the rest of them.
JS: Did anyone ask permission to change the name of the school, or was it?...
CC: %u2026Now that part, I don%u2019t--like I said, I was--I felt a tension from them, so as a child I felt that, but I didn%u2019t get all the information. I think as I got older I%u2019ve asked my father about little things, but I never asked him was there permission or anything, because the school actually belonged to the county. So, I guess there was not a way of having permission because it was in the county or state%u2019s hands, so they could do what they wanted to do at that time.
JS: Now, you all live not far from Camp School. Camp School is about--how far would you say from?...
CC: %u2026Four hundred feet [laughed].
JS: Four [laughed].
CC: From the start of the property.
JS: Do you know?
CC: It%u2019s right there.
JS: I%u2019m just saying--%u2018cause I%u2019m new.
CC: It%u2019s about four hundred feet.
JS: Okay.
CC: Starting at their property, it%u2019s about four hundred feet.
JS: And now it%u2019s a mission, right?
CC: Yes.
JS: The name of the mission is--?
SC: Crossroads Mission.
JS: Crossroads Mission. So, who owns that land now?
SC: Faith Baptist Church.
JS: Faith Baptist. Okay. So, the school--the land for the school was donated to the county; the school changed names. How did it eventually become Crossroads Mission?
CC: The county.
SC: They started making the middle schools, like Crest Middle School, and all the other kids--they started moving the children around again, and it was up for sale. All the schools were up for sale. Douglas, well it used to be Douglas; now it%u2019s Central. It%u2019s a church now--First Baptist of Lawndale--part of that--they got that. All the four schools have been bought out from other people because they built the middle schools--got Burns Middle and Crest Middle.
CC: But, when they built those middle schools, they used the other schools. At least, I know they used the school here for part of an elementary school. I think it was fifth and sixth grades; it was part of the elementary, %u2018cause I think they was splitting the elementaries up a little bit. Then after that, that%u2019s when--%u2018cause it stayed dormant for several years. Like she said, First Baptist of Lawndale got that school, Douglas or Central; Green Bethel went and got back Green Bethel. The other entities, either family or churches or whatever they was related to, was able to get the schools. We did try to get Camp back, and a couple of other people in the area wanted to buy the school, and that school became a--how can I say it?--a power war, because the price was real cheap first. Then, all of us--because we asked for it--we asked the county if they ever decide to sell that school to contact us first and they didn%u2019t. We found out in the paper that they was going to sell it. A couple of people around in this area wanted to purchase it. One gentleman was getting ready to purchase it and then they--I%u2019m not sure what about Camp School, okay? Then the price just started rising. It started getting ridiculous. I think that school caused--I think the county made more money off that school than they made out of any of the other schools. Some of the schools was just a--couple of dollars, just to kind of get it out--that school with some money.
JS: How much did it go for?
CC: I%u2019m going to--and I%u2019m not quite sure what the actual end price was, but it was close to a hundred thousand.
JS: And it started as what?
CC: I%u2019m not sure. It was reasonable enough where the gentleman that wanted it--he would get the money out from the bank and just kind of a small business type thing. It went up where he couldn%u2019t touch it any more. So, it became a power war.
JS: So who eventually, so who bought it?
CC: Faith Baptist Church.
JS: Faith Baptist?
CC: Um-hmm.
JS: Okay. So, Camp School, the land and the school, go on the market. How did your family feel seeing it go to someone else?
CC: Because I%u2019m with a good--I went to the superintendent--we went to the superintendent, my sisters and I, and we talked to them. They said, %u201CWell, okay, if you%u201D--%u2018cause I first--I went to get the deed. I had the deed traced. I sent it to Central--North Carolina Central Law School. They do deed traces. What my grandfather had set that deed up to be--he didn%u2019t want the land back. At this time--it was in the fifties. Of course, what%u2019s going on today probably wouldn%u2019t--he never might have--didn%u2019t see that was happening. But he wanted that--he put that land out there to be a school for the blacks, or at least a school. So, he didn%u2019t want any of it to come back. He didn%u2019t have no thing in there because it was given. It was a gift. But, when we went to ask for--%u2018cause the rest of the schools had already been given or purchased by other entities. We asked that if they get ready to sell this school to contact us. You know, at least contact us first. We found out in the paper. So, of course, the school system--Cleveland County School System did not say anything to us about it, did not come to us or anything. So when one of the gentlemen in the area wanted to buy the school to keep it in this area, and keep it black-owned like the other schools have done. When other people started finding out about the school, it just became--the price of it just started escalating.
JS: Now I remember you saying that there was tension about the possible name change, so I just wonder what the tension was like, knowing that this was happening to the school.
CC: I felt like the Cleveland County School System%u2026
JS: %u2026Well, I mean within the family.
CC: Well, within the family, with me, and I can only say with me, I didn%u2019t like it, but there%u2019s nothing I can do about it because I didn%u2019t have that type of money to get it. If I had that type of money, I would be in that power war just to get it, but I didn%u2019t have that type of money. So, my feelings were that I went to an organization, thinking that because of the way the other schools was done, I thought they would do the same with this school, and they didn%u2019t.
JS: Okay, and that organization you mean was Cleveland County Schools?
CC: Cleveland County Schools. Even with someone else in the area, and we was all hoping that he would get it %u2018cause he was going to make businesses out of it, which would create small businesses and stuff within the community as well, along with his business. It started getting to become a power war; he had to step back because that type of money he didn%u2019t have.
JS: Now what time did all of this happen?
CC: This happened, late eighties. Let me see, my father died in %u201985; it was after he died. It was late eighties%u2026
SC: %u2026Or early nineties%u2026
CC: %u2026or early nineties, somewhere in that area.
JS: Okay. So, what--now, you said that if you had it--if you had the opportunity, you would have bought it. What would you have done with that land?
CC: What would I have done with it? I would kind of done--I would have made it out a community center, community-based, basically a community based center. It has a gym. The Cleveland County Schools have made the--the gym has a stage in it, so I can see people using it for wedding receptions, family reunions, just community based. It could have--with some of the classrooms, because of the way the school is made, people could have had beauty shops, you know, other little businesses there with the school, with the library. That%u2019s the newest part of the school. It could have become some kind of community thing for the youth. It could have been something that the community could have gotten together, and we can just do things. Right now, you have to either go to the parks or somewhere like that, so it would have been something for the community that--and I would want to--I would have made it out of a community type center.
JS: What does Crossroads Mission do?
CC: They, with individuals that has, maybe drug abuse, something of that nature--they go there and try and help rehabilitate them.
JS: Um-hmm. Now, you live four hundred feet from this land.
CC: Four to five hundred feet, yeah.
JS: Four to five hundred feet--I%u2019m sure that%u2019s not a coincidence. Was this land that you%u2019re living on now--did this belong to your grandfather as well?
CC: Yes.
JS: Okay. So it belonged to your grandfather, then he passed it down to your father?
CC: Yes.
JS: And your father%u2019s name was--?
CC: James B. Camp.
JS: James B. Camp, so that%u2019s James B. Camp Jr.?
CC: No, Senior.
JS: Senior?
CC: That was James C. Camp.
JS: James C. Camp, okay. I%u2019m sorry.
CC: That%u2019s okay.
JS: [Laughed]. Okay, so you live four hundred to five hundred feet from the land. Do you feel, at all, a responsibility to do something with this land, because you are the Camps? You know, that%u2019s a prominent name. You mention the Camps, people know Claytenna Camp, James Camp. So, I know you%u2019re living on it, but to be that close to Camp School, do you have other plans for this land?
CC: What? Where we live now?
JS: Um-hmm.
CC: No.
JS: Okay. When your father was living, did he tell you anything about your grandfather?
CC: As far as what?
JS: Well, I mean just fond memories of him, or even things about memories of going to Camp School.
CC: Well, going to Camp School, no, but he has told stories about what he used to do with my grandfather. Most kids--this is one that I can%u2019t believe my grandfather did this, but most kids, as they grow up you know Santa Claus is not there any more, right? My father kept playing like he believed in Santa Claus until he was fifteen years old, knowing there was no Santa Claus. My grandfather--I guess he was scared to really ask, right? My father was getting everything he wanted for Christmas until fifteen, until my grandfather asked him, %u201CI know you don%u2019t believe in Santa Claus!%u201D [Others laughed]. So, you know, just little things like that. My grandfather, like I stated, when he left here--my father, when he went to the school--at that time they called the city, which was Shelby, you had to pay to go. If you were out of that area, you had to pay to go, so my father would stay with people that they knew in the city and come home on the weekend so he can finish his education. So, I%u2019ve heard other people around about his age, and they wasn%u2019t able to do that. So, you know, just things like that--just little things, like my father had some wonderful toys that his children destroyed [laughed].
SC: That%u2019s not right.
CC: I know it%u2019s not right, but although his toys was older, even then his toys was better than our toys that we was getting.
SC: He had a wagon we loved.
CC: And he had a [ ]. I have not found a [ ] since.
JS: Did he pass down any mementos from your grandfather? Any photographs? Any..?
CC: We do have a photograph. The original photograph is with my brother right now. But we have photographs of my grandfather. Basically what was passed down was the property, the land, so that was passed down. Other than that, and the furniture.
SC: I do remember my father and my mother both was telling when I was little, my mother always got up and fixed their meals first, their breakfast and they%u2019re feeding me each meal. It seemed like each time my grandfather come home from out in the field, they always asked, %u201CHave you eaten?%u201D I always shook my head, %u201CNo.%u201D He%u2019d get on my mama, %u201C[ ], feed the baby.%u201D He just bounced me up on my knee. I had just gotten up from the table; I hadn%u2019t eaten, so I sat on his knee. When he got killed, everybody in the area wondered was I with him %u2018cause everywhere he went I was always with him. They said when he got killed, that was the first thing they asked, %u201CWas the baby--was Sandra with him?%u201D %u2018Cause me and him was--they said we was stuck--I went everywhere he went.
JS: And that was something I was going to get around to was how exactly he passed away.
SC: He was in a car wreck.
JS: He was in a car wreck.
SC: He was in a car wreck.
JS: Do you remember where that was?
SC: 18 South, right down--up here on 18 South.
JS: So that%u2019s not far from the school; that%u2019s not far from here at all.
SC: No, it%u2019s not.
CC: There is a--I can%u2019t put my hands on it right now, but we did keep it. There is an article after my father--several years after my father died, we finally went through his stuff. There was an article of the wreck, explaining what happened. For years, I thought it was up there, but actually, it was down here.
SC: The man that hit him--I take care of his granddaughter%u2019s mother-in-law now. She%u2019s the one that told me about it, about her grandfather--was it her father? Yeah, her grandfather--it was her grandfather. When she told me about the wreck, she broke down %u2018cause she didn%u2019t know who I was. I told her who I was and it--.
JS: So, was it just like a random accident, or was there--?
SC: My grandfather was pulling out of this yard onto 18, and this car was coming around too fast and hit him, came out from nowhere and just hit him.
CC: And both of them, even the guy that hit him, I think he ended up dying a couple days or something%u2026
SC: %u2026Yeah, he died a couple of days later.
JS: Hmm.
CC: So evidently, it must have been a pretty bad accident.
JS: And this was what year again?
SC: %u201958.
JS: %u201958. So what was the--do you remember the outpouring from the community? Because it sounds like your grandfather was very prominent, very influential, and I would imagine there would be more than just a phone ringing off the hook. You know, people dropping by, everywhere you go, people expressing their remorse, and, I know, maybe you were too young to be able to remember that.
SC: I was too young to remember that.
JS: Do people still today tell you things about your grandfather without you even having to ask? I mean, do they say, %u201COh, I remember when--the time when such-and-such, or--?%u201D
SC: I hear it every now and again, very seldom. But, you know, you hear it every now and again, and a lot of people said I look like them. I look like my dad--get granddaddy%u2019s picture. I look like my daddy and my grandfather--if you%u2019re a Camp--there%u2019s a Camp %u201Cbrand.%u201D You can look at certain people and tell. I have cousins here I could just look at, and I don%u2019t know who they are, but you can tell they%u2019ve got some of the Camp brand.
CC: These are just copies, but [paused while looking for pictures]--.
SC: Where%u2019s the other picture, Claytenna?
CC: Right in that, too.
JS: Yes, I can tell in that picture, yes.
SC: [Laughed]. And that was my grandfather. My daddy--bring Santa%u2019s picture with Daddy [she spoke to her sister in another area of the house].
JS: So your grandfather%u2019s wife%u2019s name was--?
SC: Florence.
JS: Florence.
SC: Um-hmm.
JS: And your father%u2019s wife%u2019s name was--?
SC: Ophelia.
JS: Ophelia.
SC: Um-hmm.
JS: Okay.
SC: Pinstripe suits back in them days [looked at pictures].
CC: No, that%u2019s the wrong one [spoke of pictures].
JS: That%u2019s a sharp suit.
SC: Hmm?
JS: That%u2019s a sharp suit right there.
SC: You ain%u2019t kidding.
JS: How long had he been farming? How long was he a farmer?
SC: I think all of his life.
JS: Hmm. Okay.
SC: They said all the land that he got, he worked for.
JS: Um-hmm.
SC: He worked to get it.
JS: So, if he donated--donating the land for education, I would imagine he was very big on education.
SC: Um-hmm. Oh, he was.
CC: From my understanding, he was very big on%u2026
SC: %u2026Agriculture too%u2026
CC: %u2026making it better for the--from my understanding, he was big on making changes, although, back then, you know, a lot of segregation, race stuff, so he was fighting a lot of that stuff as well, from my understanding. So that%u2019s what--that kind of made him a little--where people know him. That%u2019s why I go back to say he was an innovator.
JS: So, in addition to donating the land for Camp School, what other changes or impact--what other impact did he have on the county?
CC: He was part of the Cleveland County Negro Fair. He was on that committee with the Cleveland County Negro Fair. That ran--I remember that, and I was born in %u201961. So, even after he died, other people that was in there with him, they continued that on, %u2018cause I remember it.
SC: My daddy went into it also. That was my father there and my grandfather there [showed pictures].
JS: What was the fair like?
CC: It was like the fair we have now, but ours was a week, and then the white fair was another week. So, as I was getting older into my elementary years, I was wondering why the fair is not two weeks any more? See, in my mind, there was a fair two weeks. The whites thought it was one week. I knew it was two weeks, but, and I was confused about that when it came to one week, %u2018cause I used to tell people, %u201CWe used to have a fair for two weeks.%u201D
SC: That was before--.
JS: Integration.
SC: Integration.
CC: But I think it went on after the integration as well, and you kind of faded it out.
JS: It faded away?
CC: Yes. You know, integration was coming in, but that was one of the things that kind of faded away.
JS: Faded away.
CC: Yes.
JS: How did you all feel about that? I mean, what was it like--can you remember what the fair was like after it had stopped--after the Negro Fair had ended?
SC: Yeah, a lot of the shows and a lot of the rides back in those days, they didn%u2019t have any more. At that time, we used to go to the fair and get in free. Then, when integration came, you had to start paying.
CC: %u2018Cause we got in free because of the grandfather and my father. When the fair%u2026
JS: %u2026I can tell you like that [laughed]%u2026
CC: See, I was younger. So, to me, I wanted to know, %u2018cause I was a child I didn%u2019t know we was getting in free. All I%u2019d know, I was going to the fair like any other child, and I wanted to go for two weeks, and I started wondering why is it not two weeks. So, that%u2019s the child mentality of me at that time, so integration didn%u2019t affect me, maybe like it affected her, because when I started school, I started%u2026
SC: %u2026She was already integrated%u2026
CC: %u2026I was integrated. I started integrated, so I never saw a change. It%u2019s always been that way to me, so as a child, I just wanted to go two weeks like I%u2019ve always done [laughed]. That was my biggest issue, %u2018cause I can%u2019t play like I wanted to.
JS: Which show did you miss the most from the Negro Fair?
SC: The hoochie-coochie stage [all laughed]. The reason I said that is because Daddy always told us, %u201CDon%u2019t go around them women.%u201D When he tells you, %u201CDon%u2019t go,%u201D that%u2019s when you want to go and sneak in at the back and stuff. That%u2019s one thing he taught us about rides; he said, %u201CDon%u2019t ride the rides at the fair because they throw them up and throw them down.%u201D %u2018Cause he was there when they put them up and take them down. He said you might miss a bolt here, might miss a bolt there. He said, %u201CDon%u2019t ride the rides.%u201D But you know, you%u2019re a child, you%u2019re going to get on that ride. I enjoyed it because, like I said, it was bigger; it had more rides and more shows. I mean, it was just really big, and the barns, %u2018cause we raised cows. This used to be a pasture, and then you go down to the barn, you see more cows then than you see now %u2018cause there were more people. More blacks had--were raising cows.
JS: Oh, so the kitchen we%u2019re in now actually used to be a pasture?
SC: Um-hmm.
CC: The house right here--when you came down the road, the house that we--I grew up in two houses, so the house up there where I used to get in most of my trouble, that house is coming down.
SC: The old home place is falling down.
CC: The home place is falling down. So all of this right here--the clearing that you see now used to be a pasture.
JS: Okay, so the home that you were just talking about, what house number is that? Where is it between?
SC: What do you mean?
JS: The house where you used to get in most of your trouble, that is right across%u2026
CC: Right up there. When you made your right turn, you see all that thickening on your right?
JS: I really didn%u2019t.
CC: Well, you saw trees and all that?
JS: There are a lot of trees around here.
CC: When you got on Mt. Sinai Church Road, when you made that right turn as you came down 18, right?
JS: Okay.
CC: When you made that right turn, you saw--okay, that%u2019s trees, that%u2019s woods or something like that, right? That might have went through your mind. You didn%u2019t see it, nothing on the right?
JS: All that went through my mind was %u201CWhere is the house that I need to get to?%u201D
CC: Well, right there on the right, when you go back out and make a left, you%u2019ll start seeing all that thickening. Actually, when you go back out this door and you look up there, you can see all that thickening. So, from 18 to here is where the home place was.
JS: So, that%u2019s where your grandfather actually lived?
CC: Yes.
JS: And this is where the farm was? This is where the pasture was?
SC: The pasture--up there at the old house, that%u2019s where the old barns, that%u2019s where all the farm equipment--all that stuff was back up in there.
JS: Okay.
SC: And this was just an open pasture and had the cows.
JS: The home was there; the pasture area was there; the pasture area was here, as well.

SC: Um-hmm.
JS: Well, that%u2019s quite a bit of land.
CC: From my understanding, as you%u2019re doing the history--from my understanding, he was the largest black landowner in Cleveland County at one time, like over two thousand acres.
JS: So how much land is still in the Camp family name that he had?
SC: It%u2019s divided four ways.
CC: I%u2019m going to say close to eighty acres still belongs between his grandchildren altogether. I%u2019m going to say roughly eighty acres.
JS: It%u2019s divided four ways.
SC: Um-hmm.
JS: By his children?
CC: Grandchildren.
JS: Okay, so when he passed away, was your father his only child?
CC: Yes.
JS: Okay. When he passed away, he divided between the four of you?
SC: And my father--my daddy.
CC: Our father, grandmother, and [ ].
JS: Father%u2026
CC: %u2026Grandmother--his wife, between them two, divided--gave us our tracts of land.
JS: Okay. So, you two are the grandchildren and there are two more grandchildren.
SC: Two more.
JS: And their names--?
CC: James B. Camp Jr. and Chiquita Camp.
JS: And do they still live in the area?
SC: No, they live in Georgia.
JS: They live in Georgia, but they still own the land.
SC: Yes.
JS: The land is still in their names.
SC: Yes.
JS: So are there any plans for the home place or is that part of the land that%u2019s still in the Camp name.
SC: That%u2019s still in the Camp name; that%u2019s my brother%u2019s property.
JS: That%u2019s your brother%u2019s property. Okay. Any plans for that--?
CC: I don%u2019t know about my brother. I don%u2019t know.
JS: Okay.
SC: [ ] up there.
CC: Oh yes, that%u2019s right. I forgot about that.
SC: What%u2019s that?
CC: You used to know what that name was.
SC: Camp Heights.
CC: Camp Heights, you%u2019ve got a division, a subdivision, Camp Heights, and you have another subdivision called Camp Estates.
JS: Okay, Camp Heights is where?
CC: Right up the street.
JS: So, leaving your home on Mt. Sinai Church Road, I%u2019d keep going up the road.
CC: You make a right, and the first road on your left--it%u2019s called Camp School Road, and as you see that, you%u2019ll see, as you go down Camp School Road, you%u2019ll see Chiquita Street, Claytenna Street, and Sandranette Street.
JS: You have a street named after you? So those streets are still named after you?
SC: Um-hmm.
CC: Yeah, those--and actually, Camp School Road is supposed to be called James Camp Road. That was supposed to be named after my brother.
SC: They made Camp Heights--.
CC: That%u2019s Camp Heights and you have Camp Estates on down the street. My sister developed a housing development. She got part of her tract and made a housing development out of it, and that is called Camp Estates.
JS: So Camp Heights is on Camp Heights Road?
CC: Camp Heights is on%u2026
SC: %u2026Camp School Road.
JS: It%u2019s on Camp School Road. Okay.
CC: And Camp Estates, it has one--it%u2019s not really a road, but if it%u2019s ever completed, it would be called Clayton Drive.
JS: Clayton Drive.
SC: Yes.
CC: Named after my mother.
JS: So what is the next phase to have it completed?
CC: Well, she still has lots that she can still sell.
JS: Okay. So she%u2019s still alive?
CC: Yeah, my sister is.
JS: Okay. So, it%u2019s just kind of up to her as to what she wants to do now.
SC: Yeah.
JS: Okay.
CC: I mean, there%u2019s homes there. Her first phase is completed; she%u2019s got homes all on her first phase. The second phase, she still has lots.
JS: Um-hmm. Okay. Sounds like it%u2019s poised for the future.
SC: And my brother, probably, from the pond all the way back that way is his.
JS: All his is undeveloped?
SC: Yeah, and down 18 and down toward behind the church.
JS: So Claytenna, the land that%u2019s yours, any plans for that?
CC: Not really.
JS: Sandranette?
SC: I%u2019m sitting on part of it now. We%u2019re sitting on 5.7 (acres) of it now.
JS: Okay.
SC: %u2018Cause this house starts from that line here all the way up here to the driveway here, and back to the creek here.
JS: Okay.
CC: That%u2019s why I said the school is probably on five--about five acres because of the size of her property.
JS: Okay. Was there anything else you%u2019d like to add or emphasize about Camp School or your grandfather?
CC: Now I can get--and it may be--it actually may be public records, I%u2019m not sure, but you can also--it%u2019s probably public records. If you go down to the--I%u2019m very familiar with the deed office, very familiar with it. You probably can get where Camp--when Camp--when did it start, and when did it end?
SC: And I can talk to some--I know one of the teachers. She had told me that my grandfather--when she moved here, he gave her--well, he got her her first job teaching. She was my third grade teacher.
JS: And how old is she now, over eighty-five?
CC: Yes, she has to be, because Mrs. Haynes is eighty-five, and she went to school with Daddy, so that%u2019s why I know it%u2019s at least thirty years old. %u2018Cause this lady%u2019s eighty-five, and the school being out of--Camp School changed somewhere in the sixties; the name might have changed. So, if she%u2019s eighty-five, so that%u2019s roughly [recording distorted] years, so that%u2019s why I%u2019m kind of counting back from that. So at least thirty years or longer.
SC: I was going to the seventh grade when the name changed.
CC: I don%u2019t know how old you were then.
SC: Okay, I was in seventh grade, so I was about thirteen, fourteen years old, because I was going to the seventh grade. That%u2019s when they--I left Camp, went over here to go to fourth grade and went here. I went over there for two years, no, one year. Then I went to Number Three for the fifth and sixth grade. Then I left Number Three, went to South Cleveland for seventh and eighth grade, then I went to Crest nine through twelve. I graduated in %u201975.
CC: But anyway, it was, because even, you know, come to think about it, I started off in Earl and then we went to Number Three, and I was always wondering why I%u2019m going to this school and this school is closer to me. See, I never knew about the race thing. I was just saying, %u201CI%u2019m going all the way over here, when the school is here.%u201D But when they used to have fall festivals and stuff, I was over there playing.
SC: See, when she was in first grade at Earl, this was still a black school.
CC: %u2018Cause then some of my friends started coming over.
SC: When integration started--my daddy said, %u201CIntegration%u2019s starting; you%u2019re going to start.%u201D
CC: So when it started%u2026
SC: %u2026I was in first, second, third grade over there; fourth grade at Earl, then it was Number Three for two years. Then we went to South Cleveland, and I walked those many years.
I didn%u2019t know how it felt to ride a bus. In first, second, and third grade I walked to school.
JS: And that was how far again?
SC: It was out here at the old home place.
CC: A fourth of a mile.
JS: It was a fourth of a mile. So it was like walking every single day to%u2026
CC: %u2026See, we lived right there. The school was right there.
JS: But still you--I mean, some kids are riding the bus, and you%u2019re%u2026
SC: %u2026And we%u2019re walking. Yeah, some kids were riding the bus. But we were walking.
CC: Even when I went to South Cleveland, a lot of kids in this community all walked. I was living here, though, when I went to South Cleveland, but even kids that%u2019s a mile away from me--they would group together and they would walk to school. They could have rode the bus; I couldn%u2019t ride a bus %u2018cause I stayed too close to the school. You know, if you live too close to the school, they%u2019re not going to stop. So, I%u2019m not sure how I got to school on the rainy days. I don%u2019t know if Daddy put me in the car and took me%u2026
SC: %u2026Daddy took us. Daddy took us.
CC: Okay, so Daddy took me, but other times I walked. Even if it%u2019s cold outside like it was today, just bundle up and walk, %u2018cause as you start walking you get warm anyway.
SC: When we lived here and was going to high school, they%u2019d drive to the top of the hill--top of the road, and sit there in the car until the bus come. Then you got a car to go get on the bus if it%u2019s raining or if it%u2019s snowing. But other than that, you stand at the top of the road, or go down--and if you missed this bus, you%u2019d go around to the other corner up there and catch them when they come back around.
JS: But you better not miss the bus.
CC: You better find some bus!
SC: You better be sick to miss that bus! And you%u2019re going to the doctor then. Daddy didn%u2019t play you laying out of school. He did not play if you was laying out of school. You went to school, come rain or come shine, you were on that bus.
JS: Do you think that%u2019s something that your grandfather definitely instilled in him?
SC: Um-hmm, I think it is, %u2018cause you went to school. You went to school. Unless you was sick or something, you did not lay out.
CC: You don%u2019t want to miss the bus but one time; that%u2019s all you needed to do.
JS: What happened if you missed the bus?
SC: Woooo!
CC: If you missed the bus, that bus better have came too early, or it didn%u2019t come at all. But, he made--my father made sure that we got up in time; we had something in our stomachs when we left out of here, and we better be up there at that--you better get that bus.
JS: And if you didn%u2019t catch the bus?
CC: You didn%u2019t want to come back home. It was--you didn%u2019t want to do that.
SC: And back in those days, the teachers--if you get in school--get in trouble at school, by the time you get in that driveway, your parents are sitting there waiting on you. I%u2019m saying, %u201CHow do they know so fast?%u201D
CC: But see, back then, the parents disciplined their kids. You know, with us--you just don%u2019t--the parents, even your neighbors--even if a neighbor had to get onto me about something that she knew I knew better, I%u2019m getting it when I get home. But parents, they don%u2019t do that any more.
SC: Even when we were growing up as children, you go to someone%u2019s house; that parent in that house is your parent. You don%u2019t do that now.
END OF INTERVIEW

Transcriber: Mike Hamrick
Date: August 21st, 2009