DANTE MURPHY

TRANSCRIPT %u2013 DANTE MURPHY
[Compiled November 19th, 2010]

Interviewee: DANTE MURPHY

Interviewer: Dwana Waugh

Interview Date: August 9th, 2010

Location: Shelby, North Carolina

Length: Approximately 54 minutes

DWANA WAUGH: Today is August 9th, 2010. This is Dwana Waugh. We are at Mt. Shiloh Baptist Church in Shelby, North Carolina. Oh, Shiloh Baptist Church, sorry, in Shelby, North Carolina. I%u2019m talking with--.
DANTE MURPHY: I%u2019m Rev. Dante Murphy.
DW: And could you say when you were born and where?
DM: I was born December 4th, 1969, in Pender County, North Carolina. That%u2019s about nineteen miles out of Wilmington, North Carolina.
DW: Okay. And could you talk just a little bit about growing up, your early childhood years?
DM: I mostly grew up in a rural area outside of Wilmington. In eastern North Carolina there%u2019s a lot of farming that goes on. Both sides of my grandparents were farmers, and mostly farmed tobacco, so most of my life I got a chance to enjoy nature. Aside from enjoying nature, church was a major part of everything that I done.
DW: Did you help out a lot? Did you pick the tobacco and help carry the tobacco when you were younger?
DM: That%u2019s mostly what life was all about. My paternal grandparents had ten children, and my other side there was about seven, so large families, when it comes to extended family, we were extended to the max on both sides, so I always had a lot of family around me. When it came to work, everybody was expected to work. What is interesting about that experience is I actually came along during a time when having a small farm was fading out, so I got to see the transition of my grandparents who had farmed all their lives. I actually stopped because of the transition. Migrant workers coming in was a big thing, so that replaced a lot of the people that normally they would utilize on the farm, like family and other friends. I got a chance to see farming really change in that aspect.
DW: What became the good jobs to have?
DM: In most places, when I was little I saw people transition from farms to going to work at factories and things of that nature. The big thing where I was, was sewing factories, so a lot of people had left doing farm work and would go work in factories. People my age, a lot of them was beginning to understand the importance of education, so they started going to college to avoid any farm work that was left and kind of also to avoid the factories.
DW: So when you were younger what did you dream that you would be when you became an adult?
DM: I probably, when it comes down to being called to pastor, I probably felt my calling at a childhood age. I%u2019m talking maybe five or six. I was just always intrigued by preachers; I was intrigued by the church and had a deep interest in the church beyond what most children had at my age. I was really eager to go and would not miss an opportunity to go.
DW: And most of your friends were the opposite?
DM: Yeah, it was not rare for me to be in church meetings that other children were not in, or were not allowed to be in, so I had kind of like a church maturity that was beyond my age.
DW: Could you talk a little bit about your childhood church, growing up, and the kind of activities that were available?
DM: You%u2019re talking now about thirty-five years ago when I was five years old. You didn%u2019t have the idea of ministries in churches, like youth ministries and things of that nature; you just went to church. You had your little fun things you done, like during Christmas, do your little Christmas speeches and things of that nature, Easter programs, doing Easter speeches, and we would have little mission activities that we would do at people%u2019s homes. I remember certain people in the church hosting these little mission groups that went from house to house, which was a big thing where I%u2019m from. That was actually called our mission, where not everything is done at the church usually. I think that%u2019s unfortunate that we don%u2019t get to interact with people in their homes a lot, but there, you went around to people%u2019s homes, and that%u2019s where you did your little things and you learned how to say your little Bible verses and things of that nature.
DW: So was it a large church that you were part of?
DM: You know, in a rural area where you%u2019ve got two hundred and fifty or three hundred people, that%u2019s big. Actually, most of our churches in the rural areas were strong churches, mainly because the church didn%u2019t have any competition on Sunday especially, so people went to church. Even at my father%u2019s church, thirty-five years ago, it was nothing to have two hundred, two hundred and fifty people in Sunday school, which was big.
DW: That%u2019s huge.
DM: So, those are the type of environments that I grew up in as far as church. Very spiritual, the whole bit.
DW: Was church really connected to school at the time when you started going?
DM: Historically, where I%u2019m from, it was not so when I came along, but historically, pastors were principals. Because even when I studied the history of our churches back then, I never knew why that was so until I got a chance to talk to some people. Back then, there was not really this separation of church and school; it was all meshed into one. Most of your church leaders were also your school leaders. That was not so much the case when I came along because when I came along, all of that was kind of changing. I honestly believe that anybody born around the late sixties or early seventies lived in a transitional period, whereby you started seeing some things really change, both culturally, and really, in the church, you had this whole idea of desegregation and things of that nature, so it was really a transitional period. Again, I don%u2019t ever remember having to drink from a separate water fountain. The only incident I have to remember of segregation was when I was good friends with the principal%u2019s son, and he took me down to the country club to go swimming. This was actually in high school, about the ninth or tenth grade, so it would have been around 1985 or %u201986. When we got into the pool, I saw the pool attendant call him over, but I never knew what she told him. I do know that he came back and told me that we can%u2019t go swimming, so we left. It was about a year or two later before graduation that he finally told me why I couldn%u2019t swim in the pool, and it was because the attendant told him that I was black. That was the only incident I ever remember of it just being blatant segregation. For the most part, I didn%u2019t experience what some people before me experienced in terms of race. I went to desegregated schools, but I did get that one little bit before--.
DW: Yeah, yeah, in %u201985, that%u2019s pretty late. Was that the first time you became aware of race relations or racism or discrimination?
DM: That was not the incident that actually caught my attention because, really, I had never thought about that. It wasn%u2019t until later on in high school when we started a golf team, around %u201986 or %u201987, and I couldn%u2019t be on the golf team because most of the golf courses didn%u2019t allow blacks to play golf. It was just like our country club in Burgaw. Some blacks were not allowed to go and golf, and, of course, if they were private, then they can do it. That was when I really learned about race, when race issues really hit me.
DW: After school, how were your school experiences? Any striking memories about elementary through high school, aside from the golf and the country club?
DM: No, those were probably the things that stand out in my memory about school. Everything else, you know, I remember black teachers always telling us that we had to work hard and study hard if we wanted to get anywhere. But because of that, to show you how those few incidents impacted me, I had choices to go to predominantly black schools, and I just had no interest at all. When all of my friends was going to predominantly black schools, I always chose white schools.
DM: Wow. Why?
DM: I always had it in my mind, I knew black people. I wanted to learn white culture, so I started off at Catawba College, where I went to play football. The only blacks that was there was there to play sports, and after a year I transferred to the University of North Carolina at Wilmington, which, I got into that school because I went through the Office of Minority Affairs and not admissions. In fact, one of my white friends actually got angry because UNC-Wilmington is a very popular school because it%u2019s over by the beach. He couldn%u2019t get in because there was no room, but he found out I had applied late and got in. He was outraged because he knew I had gotten in because I was black, and they were really pushing to get blacks to go to the school because of a very low percentage of blacks that went there at the time, so, of course, I got in because of that.
DW: How was it, going back to be near home?
DM: That was fine. I always enjoyed being at home. In fact, one of the reasons I came here is because after years of pastoring right in my home area, I wanted to know what life was outside of where I grew up. So there was a preacher friend of mine, older preacher, he%u2019s now in his eighties, that we traveled together all the time; he wanted to come see Sam Raper here in Shelby. I didn%u2019t know anything about Shelby--nothing--I didn%u2019t even know Shelby existed. But he wanted to come see Sam Raper because they used to meet up--when you used to go to church conventions, the popular way to travel was by train. Him and Sam Raper used to meet up on the train, so he remembered Sam Raper because Sam Raper had once worked in Wilmington. So he wanted to come see him, and I was the one that transported him. I remember Raper carrying us around the city, and we even passed his church. I had no clue I would ever live here. So we came here and left that evening, and I went back home, thinking this is my first journey to Shelby and it would be my last. But it just so happened, when I completed a master%u2019s program at Campbell University, I wanted to do another one here at Gardner-Webb. Well, I wanted to do another one at a school where it would be like a sister school, and, of course, I found out at that time that Gardner-Webb was the only other sister school in North Carolina to Campbell. But when I was at Sam Raper%u2019s house, I remember him having an honorary degree from Gardner-Webb Divinity School, so that%u2019s what prompted me to kind of check it out. When I checked it out, of course, I did find out it was at the time the only--besides Duke University, which was a Methodist school--but as far as Baptist schools, Gardner-Webb and Campbell were the only two in the state. So, when I came here, my wife and I decided that since she was going to be working in Gastonia, we picked Shelby simply because it was kind of like a mid-point. So that%u2019s how I ended up here.
DW: You said you had an inkling that you were called when you were five or six. When you went to Catawba and then UNC-Wilmington, what did you decide to major in?
DM: I actually majored in mathematics and physics.
DW: Oh, okay.
DM: Because people really, and when I say I felt the call, I only understand that now as I%u2019ve gotten older, that I was being called. But when I graduated from college, my only thing was, I wanted to major in something, and I saw myself going into a lab, having nothing to do with people. I wanted to spend my life in some secluded lab or office, doing my work, and never being bothered with people. Nothing I ever done led to that, nothing. I mean, my first job, the only job I could find was working with children and training parents, so everything led me back to people. From there, I started seeing how depressed society was, with working with troubled children, that that%u2019s when I really realized a lot of things that had happened throughout my childhood, as far as seeing things, and why I always wanted to be in certain meetings and hear what people were saying and analyzing what they were doing. Even as a child, I came to realize all of that had really prepared me for ministry.
DW: Yeah. You said that you drove another minister friend from Wilmington, the Wilmington area, to Cleveland County, or to Shelby, more particularly. Did you maintain contact with Rev. Raper after--?
DM: No, I didn%u2019t know Rev. Raper. The only thing I knew about Rev. Raper is that his name often surfaced in the state convention, so I knew of him in that capacity, but that was the extent that I knew him, so I had no reason to keep in contact with him once I left because I didn%u2019t know him. I was glad to meet him, but I didn%u2019t know him like that, so, no, I didn%u2019t keep contact with anybody. Again, when I decided to come to Gardner-Webb, the divinity school, we only picked Shelby because it was a mid-point, not because I was coming here to do any work.
DW: So what were your first impressions of Shelby or Cleveland County, good or bad?
DM: Initially, it%u2019s hard to say because you don%u2019t know nothing. In fact, sometimes it%u2019s a good feeling not knowing nothing because you don%u2019t have any issues to deal with. After I%u2019ve been here now about five years, there are some things which are quite interesting. Any time you come from another area, you always, as an outsider, can, looking in, can see a little more. There are a few things that interest me about this area when I got here, or after I%u2019ve gotten here and been here for a while. One is, I have been very interested in why black people don%u2019t vote. The black voter turnout here, really, is about to go off, in my opinion, almost off the scale, not even detectable, it%u2019s so low. That interests me. [Pause] The Obama election was interesting because this is one of the counties that he didn%u2019t win, although the majority of them did vote for him. And when things like that happen, it makes you wonder what are you really up against when you are looking at some societal things, but that even prompted me to look deeper into statistical things about this area. Education was always interesting because we found out that--you know, when you start looking at the number of principals and assistant principals as far as black, blacks in administration is very low here. So you start talking about, I guess, story. If you start looking closely at statistics, you begin to see some numbers that just don%u2019t add up, but again, you%u2019re talking about an area where blacks don%u2019t vote. I think, where you don%u2019t vote, you lose whatever clout you would have, which makes it very difficult for the few blacks that you do have in leadership. I have often maintained that--I happen to have the only black that serves on the board of education is in this church now, of those here. The only black assistant superintendent is a member here. You know, several other people that serve in leadership, but again, when you look at the numbers across the board, there is not that many. What I%u2019ve learned that%u2019s interesting about having a voice is that, you know, when you%u2019ve got one black out of about nine serving on the board, what can they say? Because if they say something, you remember, you%u2019re outnumbered, and I%u2019ve boldly contended that I don%u2019t have any animosity or anything against whites because I%u2019m just as guilty as they are. I don%u2019t sit around thinking about how to promote white causes, and they don%u2019t sit around thinking about how to promote black causes, so that%u2019s where we are, in my thinking with all that. But those were some of the things that I found out that was interesting about this particular area is that there is really no advancement of--when you start talking about the advancement of blacks, I don%u2019t think it%u2019s particularly blacks overall, I think it%u2019s just certain blacks that excel. One notable person, I can%u2019t think of his name, he would phrase it that %u201Cthe NAACP is not necessarily for the advancement of colored people, but rather, the advancement of certain people.%u201D
DW: What groups of people do you think are the ones that have benefited, or who get left out?
DM: Every area like this, where, as I say, I think a lot of this stems--if you have a low voter turnout with any group of people, what I think happens is that if there%u2019s an issue, what happens is that [pause] the very minimal will be done, just to satisfy, or rather, to keep any noise down that anybody is treating anybody bad. So we%u2019re always going to have a few blacks leading something, but that%u2019s only to satisfy the image. I just think that%u2019s the way that pans out. Until the issues are raised about--or the issue has to be raised by those who feel like they are oppressed. I just don%u2019t honestly believe that people oppress people deliberately. I think sometimes it%u2019s just based on you%u2019re naturally who you are. It%u2019s kind of like the trouble Mrs. ( ) liked to have got in with her speech. She was saying some things she naturally, she done twenty years ago. It wasn%u2019t because she was racist. Naturally, she thought that a white lawyer would help out a white man better, and so she hooked him up with one. So I think that%u2019s what we deal with even when it comes down to hiring practices and things like that. And I say that, and I%u2019m saying all of this because when you start asking about a particular area, I don%u2019t think it%u2019s about a particular area being good or bad, or people being good or bad. I think we just live out who we are, and when there%u2019s a problem, unless somebody raises the issue, it will continue to be a problem.
DW: It sounds like maybe in Wilmington that there was more, at least, African-Americans who were politically active, compared to this area.
DM: When I left Wilmington area--well, let%u2019s take Wilmington, for example. They had put so many blacks in leadership positions, they almost had--well, they did--they had to stop because it was almost looking like whites were now being discriminated against. But, again, and I remember when I left, the person they had hired over at Social Services was black; I think he%u2019s still there. The city manager was black, the sheriff was black, the person over parks and recreation was black; and the housing authority, they had just hired a black man over it. That%u2019s why I sometimes tell people there was a guy who came here from Wilmington to Shelby as chief of police, Tandy Carter, and I once told some people %u201Cthe only reason Tandy Carter didn%u2019t get hired in Wilmington is because they had already hired so many blacks they couldn%u2019t hire any more.%u201D So it was a little bit different, but you%u2019ve got to remember Wilmington%u2019s history. I don%u2019t know if you%u2019ve ever heard of the Wilmington Ten? All of that stuff happened in Wilmington. Ben Chavis was a part of that, so, historically, there was a lot of stuff. Even the areas around Burgaw, you didn%u2019t see this-- later on, you didn%u2019t see just this blatant--there was really not racial issues, tensions. It probably happened, but blacks always really felt like they had strong representation, so it wasn%u2019t a matter of feeling like you was discriminated all the time and you wasn%u2019t going to get anywhere, things of that nature. The thing about it is, there was always--and you could say things a little more openly where I%u2019m from. Which I find it%u2019s interesting here is that you have to really play this interesting game and be kind of politically correct when you talk. So that was a difference, and I%u2019ve had to adjust to that. I%u2019ve had to adjust to the fact that this is a very noticeable white-run county, but again, I think the basis of a lot of that is because you have such low voter turnout and things of that nature.
DW: Is there anything that you attribute to the low voter turnout?
DM: I have been probing that since I got here. The person that%u2019s the president of the African-American Caucus goes here, and I have pondered that question with him over and over: Why is the turnout so low? Either people have not been motivated to do it, or the other part of me believes that if people are happy where they%u2019re at, then they%u2019re just happy; you can%u2019t expect more. Biblically, it%u2019s kind of like the children of Israel wanting to know, %u201CMoses, why did you bring us out of Egypt? We was fine, because at least under Pharaoh we had food to eat,%u201D so sometimes if people think they%u2019re all right, they tend to be less involved. It%u2019s kind of like church life. You don%u2019t have a big conference unless something%u2019s going on. Most people, when things are going well, they won%u2019t come to a church meeting because there%u2019s nothing going on; they%u2019re happy. So I think that%u2019s the same thing with low voter turnout. If people are happy, they%u2019re just happy.
DW: What got you involved in the political scene when you first got here?
DM: Statistics. When it first came to my attention that well over eighty percent of whites%u2019 children were passing integrated testing, both parts, but only forty-four percent of blacks could pass both parts. There is no way I could sit in a church and pastor a church where I%u2019ve got an assistant superintendent in it; I%u2019ve got principals; I%u2019ve got the only black on the board of education, and not do something, or not say something or not be involved in that process some kind of way. There%u2019s just no way. I would almost feel like a hypocrite if I didn%u2019t say something. That%u2019s why I feel the ministers and I got together and we worked with, actually a member out of Shoal Creek and a member out of this church, and we started three years ago, doing the summer math academy, which is completely funded by the community. The first two years, we raised twenty thousand dollars and ran the three-week school. We expanded this year; we had to raise thirty thousand, and we have been successful all three years in doing that.
DW: Now when you say community funded, you mean the larger community or just the African-American community?
DM: Well, I hate to say it, but it is predominantly the African-American community. There are some whites who give, but mostly, I would say the first two years, and it may have been so this year; I don%u2019t know the statistics, but I would venture to say that over ninety-five percent of our funds came from the black community. A large support of that has been the churches. A lot of it just come through the churches.
DW: The school system, have they tapped into the academy? Are they aware of it?
DM: Oh, yeah. We actually partner with the school system. In fact, Dr. Boyles, who is a superintendent here, he actually lends us two principals--well, a principal for the first two years, but this year, gave us two principals to actually be over the school for three weeks. Now the teachers, we pay them, so it%u2019s running with real teachers and stuff like that. The majority of students are African-American. And this is why over the three years I%u2019ve learned that in terms of things that are oppressive, like low hiring of minority administrators, I don%u2019t think Dr. Boyles is this bad guy by any means. I think he actually will be held as a great superintendent by both communities, but again, I don%u2019t think he sits in his office every day and thinks about what am I going to do to help black people excel? I don%u2019t think that%u2019s his issue. His issue, where it may be education, it%u2019s not broken down into the interests of certain people in the community. But I think that issue is up to whoever has oppressed race, because he%u2019s done a fabulous job, I think, of working with us on that issue, on the issues of helping out, especially with the math academy.
DW: So blacks have to advocate for themselves.
DM: I think that%u2019s where you are, and if it%u2019s going to happen, really, I still say the church is probably still pivotal in addressing some of the issues that go on, which would lead me to say, another thing that I was shocked about was how little interest pastors had in dealing with justice issues in this area. I do believe that it%u2019s surfacing again because you%u2019ve had several preachers in this area who have gone through formal education by way of Gardner-Webb starting its divinity school, I think some ten or fifteen years ago. Now you actually have trained ministers who know how to address these issues, so I think that has a lot to do now with why there may be some interest in these type things.
DW: And there%u2019s the discussion in the schools of how to deal with social justice matters?
DM: Oh, yeah, you learn a lot of that and a lot of other things dealing with ministry in a holistic sense. I think that%u2019s why those issues are now. I can tell you of several ministers who are very attentive to what%u2019s going on in the community and in wanting to help and wanting to do something to make sure things progress.
DW: Someone had told me once that at least in the days of segregation that the three most vital institutions to Cleveland County African-Americans were churches, schools, and parks. In your five years here, what would you say is the, or are the key institution or institutions in the area?
DM: Well, I think those, right now, definitely church and school. This is why even when you start to talk about violence in this area, which is drawing attention now because we%u2019ve got several young people, early twenties, who have been murdered. I just read an article in the paper today that the suicide rate is higher here than the state average. For a small town to have the murder rate that we%u2019ve had--murder-suicide rate--it%u2019s pretty alarming. It just don%u2019t seem like you%u2019re big enough to have those kind of issues come up. But the reason I say church and school is because school, if you%u2019re going to analyze the situation that going on in the community, you can always go back to what%u2019s going on in the church and in the schools. You can almost follow a child through the early days and determine what they%u2019re going to turn out to be. A lot of times it leads to stereotyping, but most people are not trained not to stereotype. If a child is rowdy and rough all through his early school days, it grows up in them and they keep on being like that. Every now and then, one will escape and do good, and somebody will come along and say, %u201CYou know, I never thought you would have done this,%u201D but that%u2019s rarity. In most cases, they turn out to be just what they were in the third, fourth, and fifth grade. So schools are vital, and if we cannot--if that forty-four percent integrated testing score--if those numbers remain forty-four percent, that means that%u2019s going to translate into (fifty)-six percent of children headed for failure. It%u2019s evident in our low--and some of the things that%u2019s going on at Shelby High School now are dealing with African-Americans. We%u2019ve got star athletes in this county, but after high school, you don%u2019t see them playing on nobody%u2019s television or playing at nobody%u2019s school. You see them walking up and down the streets. And again, church, I think the church has always been pivotal because if there%u2019s pain and frustration, it usually gathers at the church on Sunday morning.
DW: We talked a little bit before about the importance of knowing churches%u2019 history. Why do you think that%u2019s significant?
DM: [Pause] I once heard Hosea Murray, I think his name was, once quote, and he said he often quoted the fact that whenever we forget our past, we are denying our very existence. There is such a power, and I%u2019m not even a historian, but I know the power of knowing where you come from. It gives you a whole different appreciation for where you are now. Rather than shun some of the ugly stuff that%u2019s went on in our history, I actually, as a pastor, embrace it because I think it shows the handiwork of God in bringing us to where we are now. You can look back and actually know that ancestors were slaves, and now, you%u2019ve got a black president. That shows how God has moved throughout time. I%u2019m interested in knowing what%u2019s the history of black churches originating in this county and how do they transition from slavery and worshipping under trees to building buildings, and then having their own establishment.
DW: Why do you think that is important to know, for local residents?
DM: Again, if you don%u2019t know, you can%u2019t fully appreciate where you are. I wish it was such that everybody could have had at least one experience like I had, coming up as a child. Like I said, I didn%u2019t even know what it was like having to drink from a separate water fountain, but I do remember that incident at the pool. I wish everybody could have at least one time where they were just blatantly mistreated because of their color. In fact, even when my children would come home and say the teacher was racist, I welcomed that opportunity for them to even be able to say it. I never said a word and responded because I wanted them to know what it was like to be mistreated because of color.
DW: I guess to wrap up, I wanted to ask you, in the five years you%u2019ve been here, what changes, if any, have you seen taking place in the county?
DM: I have honestly seen somewhat of a renewed interest in pastors to be involved with social issues. When I got here, I can almost say with confidence there was none, but keep in mind, since I%u2019ve been here, I don%u2019t know the exact number, but there have been at least probably ten to eleven pastors or preachers who have went through formal seminary training which most pastors did not do that. They were not formally trained. This is one of the few churches who historically have always hired formally trained pastors, but other ones, they%u2019re not always, that%u2019s not even been an issue with them. [Pause] I have seen that happen; that%u2019s probably been the biggest thing. Pastors have a renewed interest about education, so that%u2019s been a complete turnaround in five years, which has been amazing.
DW: And do you think that%u2019s filtering down to the parishioners that--?
DM: Well, keep in mind, time will tell a lot of things. I believe wholeheartedly that it will because, again, when you have been formally trained, the pew will ultimately take on pastor traits, and I think it is. I hear it in pastors%u2019 conversations, education is always kind of at the helm of most conversations, so I think that will--oh, I think it is. Like I say, just by us doing the math academy, I think it%u2019s filtering down now, the importance of education. Some other things that I would love to see: I haven%u2019t seen a change in five years with voting, aside from when there was the election year of President Obama, so I would love to see more happen in terms of people actually voting. I would like to see more black principals and assistant principals and persons of color in AP positions. Those things have not really come to fruition yet. But as far as the pastors, I%u2019ve seen a great change in their interests.
DW: Have you noticed much in the way of housing and in the neighborhoods?
DM: Housing is still an issue. You still have a bunch of run-down houses, perhaps landlords who are absent. I think this city has a lot of absent landlords, and when you%u2019re absent, you tend not to care about your property. You just want to make sure you get your rent. I won%u2019t say there%u2019s not been a lot of neighborhood restoration. What I%u2019ve seen here, a lot of stuff is done, but it%u2019s done in a fragmented manner. Maybe you%u2019ve got one little group over here doing something. You%u2019ve got another group over here, and they never connect, but there are some efforts being made to kind of unite what%u2019s going on in the city and county, so in that regard I think there%u2019s some. I think the interest in the pastors would bring about a lot of change and motivation for the people.
DW: So, being from eastern North Carolina, do you see yourself staying in Cleveland County for the long, long, long haul?
DM: You know, I%u2019m always afraid to answer that question because the answer that I would give is that--and what I%u2019ve always said, and I%u2019ve been saying it for five years: I didn%u2019t come here to stay. But every pastor that I ever heard say those same words died right where they had not come to stay. I%u2019m afraid to say that because in all honesty, Shelby is not a place that you look on a map and say, %u201COh, I would love to move there one day.%u201D It%u2019s just not; I don%u2019t care what anybody says. It has nothing to do with the city, it%u2019s just that its location, it%u2019s in the middle of everything and it ain%u2019t near nothing. So it%u2019s not a place that you pick on the map and say, %u201COh, I would like to move there and retire one day,%u201D but again, I%u2019ve been saying that for five years; I didn%u2019t come here to stay. So, as a pastor, calling and God has a lot to do with that, so I think in that regard, I can only say I will be here until my work here is done. At that point, I will move on. Now, whether that%u2019s in the next year, the next five years or the next twenty-five years, I really honestly don%u2019t know.
DW: I guess I could have probably worded that a little better, but do you consider Cleveland County and Shelby home now?
DM: Home?
DW: Or is home not quite there yet?
DM: As a pastor, honestly, and I don%u2019t know if this is because I%u2019m a pastor, I%u2019ve never felt--this is the third church I%u2019ve pastored--I%u2019ve never felt any of my churches were home [pause] because I think that you work, God calls us to a place, and I think, likewise, he can call us from a place. I%u2019m always open to that, so what I intend to do is, I say that every pastor should pastor like they%u2019re going to be at that church forever, but at the same time, realize they could be gone tomorrow. But you work and make sure that when you leave, you left things better than what you found it. That%u2019s just my philosophy. I%u2019m under no pressure to stay anywhere, but I have always guaranteed every church I ever went to that I guarantee you when I leave, things will be better than what I found it. I don%u2019t think any pulpit search committee can ask for any better.
DW: Okay. Well, I guess my last question is just is there anything that you would add that we haven%u2019t discussed or that you would want people to know about you or Cleveland County?
DM: Well, in spite of all that I said, when it comes down to opportunities to really make a difference in our society, this is a great place that really, and from a pastoral, if people really want to do ministry, this is a good place to really actually do something and you would probably be able to look back and say, %u201CWow! I made a difference in that.%u201D Because again, low voter turnout, that%u2019s opportunity. Low black administrators-- opportunity, so in that regard, if people really have a heart to really do something for society, I don%u2019t see a better place to do it. If you want to at least have something to say to the Lord when you%u2019re standing before him, why not here?
DW: That%u2019s making lemonade out of lemons.
DM: Oh, yeah.
DW: Well, thank you very much for doing this and your time. I appreciate it.
DM: Well, you%u2019re welcome.

END OF INTERVIEW

Transcribed by Mike Hamrick, November 19th, 2010
Edited by A. Jolene Litton, June 9, 2011