HOYT LOVELACE

TRANSCRIPT %u2013HOYT LOVELACE
[Compiled August 20th, 2009]

Interviewee: HOYT LOVELACE

Interviewers: Buzz Biggerstaff, Jeff Currie

Interview Date: August 13, 2008

Location: Shelby, NC, at Shelby City Hall

Length: 47 minutes

BUZZ BIGGERSTAFF: Hoyt, we appreciate you coming over and talking with us. I%u2019d like for you to kind of go back and think about your days here at the Cleveland Cloth Mill and what you maybe started out doing, and what got you over here. We%u2019ll start with that, and then we%u2019ll proceed and go to some other things.
HOYT LOVELACE: Okay. Well, I started out on the bottom, Buzz. I worked my way up through warping, slashing, drawing in, up to supervisor in preparation.
BB: Okay. How long did you work in that warping and slashing area?
HL: Probably six or seven years.
BB: And you were supervisor of the last area--you was in the supervision area%u2026
HL: %u2026Yeah%u2026
BB: %u2026and that was mainly in slashing?
HL: Yeah, slashing and quilling, and all that drawing in.
BB: What are some of the big changes that you saw just the period of time you were there from when you started? For example, did you have much slow-down time or did you run pretty steady? Did you have extra days off when the orders weren%u2019t good?
HL: It was six and seven days because Robert Stevens was Secretary of the Army under Eisenhower, and we got all the government orders.
BB: Oh, okay. So, you didn%u2019t have to worry too much about short time?
HL: No, no, not the whole time I was there.
BB: Okay, the folks a lot of time talk about textiles kind of being sort of the bottom of the totem pole as far as our status symbol. What is your feeling about textiles itself? Did you have a family atmosphere at the--at Cleveland Cloth, or were people kind of independent and self-supportive, or did you have a lot of togetherness, maybe is the best way--?
HL: Well, we had a lot of family and there was some good people worked there, you know. That%u2019s the way I made my living all these years. I raised a family and sent a kid to college.
BB: A lot of the plants here in the county had their own villages. Did Cleveland Cloth have a village? When you worked here, did you live in one of their houses?
HL: No, no, now I never did do that, and I don%u2019t know how many they had because I don%u2019t remember it having any when I worked there; now, Buzz, there might have been.
BB: Some early on, may have had some?
HL: Yeah, I%u2019m sure there was.
BB: Well, I was just thinking that some of the houses along there--the plant is still there. As far as I know, most of it is still standing, and there%u2019s some of the houses that look like they might have been company houses.
HL: Yeah, I%u2019m sure there was later on.
BB: Yeah, okay. How did your wages over there compare with any friends you had that maybe you went to school with or maybe they%u2019re just friends and worked at other places? How did you feel toward what you were making? Was it satisfactory enough that you were pleased where you were?
HL: Well, I guess it was because I bought a house while I was there.
JEFF CURRIE: [Laughed]. About what year was this when you started there?
HL: Oh, this was in 1960, I believe it was.
JC: About 1960?
HL: Yeah.
BB: So, you were already married when you went to work over there?
HL: Oh, yeah, yeah. I was married and living in Rutherford County and drove backwards and forwards for several years.
BB: Uh-huh. So you actually came to work here from Rutherford County%u2026
HL: %u2026Right%u2026
BB: %u2026before you moved into the city.
HL: Yeah, I came from Stonecutter%u2026
BB: %u2026Okay%u2026
HL: %u2026to Cleveland Cloth.
BB: Okay. Having worked at maybe three different operations--there%u2019s always similarities--was there anything different here at Cleveland Cloth? In other words, did you have a finishing process there, or was it just through weaving there?
HL: It was just through weaving.
BB: But, they opened a bale of cotton and carded--?
HL: No, we didn%u2019t have no carding either.
BB: Okay, so they brought yarn%u2026
HL: %u2026They brought it in, yeah.
BB: Okay. And Stevens being a big outfit, I%u2019m sure they had a pretty good many employees at this plant, did they not?
HL: Yeah, I can%u2019t remember right off how many employees we had--probably five or six hundred probably, because they run three shifts. It might have been more than that, Buzz.
BB: That%u2019s what I was going to ask you, if it wasn%u2019t a three-shift operation. We were thinking about some of the--it%u2019s not exactly leisure situations, but it is maybe relaxation situations. Being on an eight-hour shift, you didn%u2019t work %u2018til five o%u2019clock and have an hour for lunch %u2018cause you worked straight through eight hours. So, you had break times specified and when to take them; was there anything that you did, like play checkers after you ate a bite or anything, or did you pretty well have to get right back to the job?
HL: Well, it was pretty well get back to the job, you know. Back then, you didn%u2019t have no relief help much. Well, you had a helper helping you on the slasher, Buzz, but if you left, you left it with him. You couldn%u2019t be gone too long %u2018cause he didn%u2019t know how to run the machine.
BB: Yeah. You being in supervision, you%u2019ll know what I%u2019m speaking of; after the industrial engineering concept came into being, you and I both lived through the initial start-up of that. How did it--in your area--how did it affect the folks as far as their personal time? I%u2019m speaking of the job load--by having industrial engineers to study--they came up with working minutes based on something. How was your job set up when you were an hourly pay person?
What kind of personal time were you allowed?
HL: Well, we were allowed so many breaks a day, but you know I can%u2019t remember. J. T. Jones was the only fellow I knew, I think, in IE that come out and checked the people. If you had people get to saying the job was too heavy, or too much, they%u2019d come out and check them, but that%u2019s all I remember about that.
BB: I know, kind of the standard is around fifty-two percent of a job, maybe pretty close to what the jobs would call for, but if you take, on an eight-hour shift, and you%u2019ve got a total of fifty minutes of break time, you are allowed some for personal fatigue, which means that you don%u2019t have--you%u2019re going to have some time to--for your body to slow down. In other words, you can%u2019t go at that hundred pace all the time. So as far as you knew, everything was fine as far as the way they had it set up?
HL: Yeah, yeah.
BB: Did you work prior to industrial engineers there at Cleveland?
HL: Did I do what?
BB: Work there prior to them using IE%u2019s?
HL: No, no.
BB: They were already in the plant?
HL: Yeah, yeah, they were already there.
BB: Okay.
JC: How was it different when you moved from Rutherford County into Shelby? How did your life change? Two different places--and what were some of the differences in the communities?
HL: Well, I just liked it here a lot better%u2026
JC: %u2026Closer [laughed]%u2026
HL: %u2026than I did in Spindale. Way up at Spindale, I worked at Stonecutter, and I came down here, and I got about eighty cent on the hour more%u2026
JC: %u2026Okay, you made more money?...
HL: %u2026on the same job, see? That%u2019s the reason I come. Buzz, you know John G. McBrayer, the HR Director.
BB: Yeah.
JC: Did they offer you the job--like, recruit you or did you just hear about it and put in for it?
HL: No, I just heard about it and come down and put an application in.
JC: Yeah. What about home life, though? Is most of your family over in Rutherford County?
HL: Well, yeah, I%u2019ve got a brother up in Rutherford County. I%u2019ve just got two brothers, one here and one in Rutherford County.
JC: Okay, so one of your brothers had moved down here.
HL: Yeah, and all my wife%u2019s people%u2019s from up in Rutherford County.
JC: Was it hard on--especially back in that day, was it hard on the family to be away from her family and all that?
HL: Well, no, not really because me and a bunch of guys worked there and we traveled. You know, we%u2019d team up in their cars and ride with one another.
JC: Right.
HL: Work the third shift--a lot. You went in at--well, you had to leave about nine o%u2019clock; you went to work at ten--from ten %u2018til six.
JC: So you didn%u2019t really lose a lot of home life, then%u2026
HL: %u2026No%u2026
JC: %u2026because you were working through the night.
HL: No, my wife always worked the first, so--. Let%u2019s see, Stonecutter, Cleveland Cloth, Cone, Buster Brown in Forest City; that%u2019s really the only jobs I%u2019ve had in my lifetime in seventy-two years.
JC: Wow! So you just made the rounds, going to different places, and I guess they paid more than places that you got%u2026
HL: %u2026Yeah%u2026
JC: %u2026and doing a similar job.
HL: Yeah, back then they didn%u2019t pay a lot [laughed].
JC: [Laughed].
BB: Do you remember what your rate of pay was when you came here? Well, did you start in warping here or at Rutherford?
HL: I started warping here.
BB: Did you?
HL: I was in slashing at Stonecutter.
BB: Okay, so it took you a while to build up to slasher tender?
HL: Yeah, yeah, you had to help on it at first, Buzz. You had to help on it.
BB: Yeah.
HL: But, what got me--I worked at Buster Brown in Forest City where the little white socks, you know, they boarded them?
BB: Uh-huh.
HL: I was making a dollar-and-sixty-five cent an hour. I went to Stonecutter for seventy-five cent an hour and I was glad to get it.
JC: [Laughed].
HL: The only time I got a raise at Stonecutter is when the minimum wage went up. We got two cent one time.
JC: Two cents? For on the hour?
HL: Yeah. The only time you got it is when the minimum wage went up.
JC: I bet you were happy there was a minimum wage.
HL: Well, yeah, if you hadn%u2019t, you wouldn%u2019t%u2026
JC: %u2026You wouldn%u2019t have gotten--they won%u2019t free to give it to you, were they?
HL: You might want to erase all this now.
JC: [Laughed].
BB: I wanted to ask one question involving a net amount, so to speak. You got a good raise by coming down. Considering your time to get here and your time to get back, and your expenses in operating a vehicle, which, thank goodness, wasn%u2019t as bad as it is now.
HL: Oh, no.
BB: How did you feel toward that?
HL: Well, I liked it, really, because I really liked the people at Cleveland Cloth, and I liked to work for them. Hazel Howard--I don%u2019t know if you ever knew Hazel or not.
BB: I remember the name.
HL: He was Department Head, you know. See, we%u2019d team up and drive; one would drive one week and the other would drive the other, you know.
BB: Yeah.
HL: Then we finally come down and met Mr. Brittain and bought a house.
BB: So you really--the net pay was just a big plus.
HL: Yes, it was. Yeah.
BB: And then--now knowing--the next question I wanted to ask you--that knowing Stonecutter, which is the Rutherford County plant, was basically family-owned; it was private.
HL: Oh, yeah.
BB: And then you came to one that even though we don%u2019t realize it being as private, maybe, with the home office for Stevens at that time was in Greenville. Even though it was family owned, did you have any better feelings among the employees at either one of the plants?
HL: I had better at Cleveland Cloth.
BB: Oh, you did?
HL: Yeah.
BB: Okay. In other words, it felt more like a family atmosphere?
HL: Yeah, yes it did. It was really good people.
BB: Yeah, and at the Stonecutter plant, they were not only the owners, they lived there, right, the people that owned it?
HL: Yeah, right, they lived there. Ivey Cannon and J.S. Tanner, you know, owned the hospital.
BB: Right.
JC: Did you grow up in a mill town, or how did you grow up?
HL: No, I growed up on the farm.
JC: You grew up on the farm? Did you want to get off the farm, which is why you went into mill work?
HL: Yeah.
JC: Didn%u2019t like that farm work?
HL: Well, there wasn%u2019t a lot of money on the farm.
JC: That%u2019s right.
BB: Look at him; he%u2019d have trouble picking cotton.
JC: [Laughed].
HL: Well, I did though. I want you to know I picked a lot of it, Buzz.
JC: Especially cucumbers--you%u2019re a tall man.
HL: Well, you have to get down on your knees--pray a little bit, I guess.
JC: [Laughed].
BB: How did you feel toward the buying power back then versus what it is now? Of course, you%u2019re like I am--been retired a while, but did you feel like you could get a lot more for your money back then?
HL: Yeah, I believe you could, Buzz.
BB: Did it take--it didn%u2019t take as much to satisfy you then, did it?
HL: No, no.
JC: Why do you think that it%u2019s changed so, nowadays?
HL: Well, it%u2019s people in the fast lane, you know.
JC: Yeah.
HL: Everything going up--gas going up--that makes groceries go up; it makes everything go up.
JC: So, when you worked your way up into a supervisor position--you said you were a supervisor to work some. Did you feel like--I mean, you kind of left the floor, I guess, in the same way that you had been before, right?
HL: Yeah.
JC: Did you feel any difference with the employees that you had been with before?
HL: Not a bit. Not a bit. I always treated my employees like I%u2019d want to be treated.
JC: That%u2019s right. And I guess it helped that you%u2019d started out, you know.
HL: Yeah, see, I%u2019d worked with them, and I%u2019ve had people to come up to me and tell me I was the best fellow they ever worked for. Of course, they might have been bragging on me, though.
JC: [Laughed].
HL: You want to treat people fair, you know?
JC: Yeah.
BB: What was expected of you--well first, let me ask--and this is here at the cloth mill--what type fabric did you make?
HL: Well, most of it was drapery.
BB: Drapery material, and was it all stripes or solids?
HL: No, it was solid.
BB: You didn%u2019t have any jacquards or%u2026
HL: No, no, we didn%u2019t have no jacquard loom. It was%u2026
BB: Everything was a Draper type loom?
HL: Yeah, Sixes and Drapers.
BB: Yeah, okay.
HL: Yeah, Sixes and Drapers, and we wove it upside down because, see, if you had a broke pick or something--oh, it would show up.
BB: Yeah, yeah.
HL: You couldn%u2019t see it if the face was up, you know.
BB: On the bottom side.
HL: You could see it a lot better.
BB: How did the--I guess, the company--feel toward quality when you first started? Was that a big issue? I know it%u2019s got some bearing everywhere, probably all the points of time, but did they really stress quality weave?
HL: Yeah, yeah, they sure did, Buzz, %u2018cause that was--you don%u2019t want to make bad stuff.
BB: Yeah.
HL: You want it to be tops.
BB: Okay, what about safety?
HL: Oh, yeah, they were after us bad about safety all the time, and that was a good thing.
BB: Yeah.
HL: I don%u2019t remember nobody really getting hurt bad that worked for me all those years, as I can remember. You really wanted to stress that.
BB: Yeah. We may have talked about this; I don%u2019t believe I have. Did the cotton come in in bales and y%u2019all have cards? You didn%u2019t have cards%u2026
HL: %u2026We didn%u2019t have no cards. See, it come in already%u2026
BB: %u2026Okay.
JC: Do you know where it come from? Was it some local place that did it?
HL: No, it come from J.P. Stevens--all their plants--they had eighty-five plants.
JC: So, did y%u2019all get it from different ones?
HL: From different--from different plants, yeah. Most of it come from Georgia.
JC: Georgia?
HL: Um-hmm.
JC: So, did that--sound like it cost money to ship it all the way up%u2026
HL: Well, yeah, but they had their own trucking, you know. They were in it in a big way.
BB: They had some plants down there too, I think.
HL: What was that?
BB: I think Stevens had a plant or two in Georgia.
HL: Yeah.
BB: Was theirs--did they not have a plant out west of Atlanta?
HL: They had plants in Greenville and Clemson. See, Burlington was the biggest manufacturer, but J.P. Stevens was next to them.
BB: Yeah.
HL: I believe we employed about forty thousand people at one time.
JC: Wow! Gosh.
BB: I know we can look now, and with our feelings toward a lot of our friends and family that have lost jobs to the overseas market. What are your feelings toward the quality y%u2019all were able to produce and the quality of the goods we%u2019re having to buy now?
HL: Oh, ours was number one, Buzz.
BB: Ours was far%u2026
HL: %u2026Yeah, the American was number one to this foreign stuff, you know.
BB: Uh-huh.
JC: Why do you think that is, %u2018cause we cared about it? It was going to people%u2026
HL: Well, they just done a better job.
JC: Yeah.
HL: A better job--you know, Buzz, when we worked at Cone up there, you know they%u2019d send a whole bunch of stuff back to [ ], Mexico for us to re-do.
JC: %u2018Cause it was done wrong.
HL: Yeah, but they hadn%u2019t been in business as long as we had, right?
BB: Right, right. Well, what%u2019s you feelings toward the purchasing of these out-of-the-country fabrics? We won%u2019t say where, but we know that some fabric that was to be made was to go to third-world countries, and never did get there. It was sent to [ ] plants here in the country. Have you seen reduced prices on these fabrics after they were made overseas and come in? Or finished goods, I%u2019m meaning to say, like jeans and shirts. Have you seen anything that indicates that we%u2019re getting a break on pricing?
HL: I don%u2019t think so.
BB: So, we know we%u2019ve got a reduction in our quality, and we are having to pay as much now as what you say, as we did when it was made here, pretty much.
HL: Yeah, or more, probably.
JC: Yeah. So, what do you think--I mean, textiles was going so good. I mean, really, for so long--what really killed it in many ways? In the South--I mean, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia--I mean, in what many considered the Textile Belt, you know--.
HL: NAFTA killed it.
JC: NAFTA killed it? That free trade, no tariffs%u2026
HL: Yeah, that%u2019s exactly right.
JC: They can produce it cheaper than we can %u2018cause they don%u2019t pay?
HL: Yeah.
JC: Yeah.
HL: Don%u2019t you think it did, Buzz?
BB: It sure had a big bearing on it.
JC: How do you think it has affected these communities? How--what changes have you noticed in Shelby ever since the textiles went down?
HL: Well, you%u2019ve got all these plants standing and nobody working.
JC: Yeah. Have the people seemed, to you, to suffer?
HL: Why, sure, you know they have; a lot of people has, yeah.
BB: What was your feelings, Hoyt, when people--this is back before the demise--what was your feeling when you%u2019d hear somebody say, %u201CPoor textiles--I feel sorry for %u2018em. They%u2019re going to be shutting down,%u201D and all of this. What was your reaction to folks%u2019 comments like that?
HL: Well, I never did think they%u2019d all close down, Buzz.
BB: Did you have any feelings like, %u201CWell, if it does close down, it%u2019s going to take a lot of others with it.%u201D Did you ever have that feeling?
HL: Yeah, yeah, I%u2019m sure I did.
BB: Yeah.
JC: Why didn%u2019t you think it was going to all close down?
HL: Well, I just didn%u2019t think--you know, I thought there would be some stuff made in the US of A, and there%u2019s not nothing being made there no more, you know. There just ain%u2019t many plants in North Carolina.
JC: Right.
HL: No textile plants that I know of. You know, there might be some little factories, you know.
JC: Do you think--what part do you think the government had in playing in the decline?
HL: Well, I just don%u2019t know. They just shipped all the jobs away, and--.
JC: Do you think they tried hard enough to keep the industry going?
HL: No, I don%u2019t think the government helped us enough, really.
JC: What could they have done?
HL: You know, the United States, to keep us going.
JC: Yeah.
HL: Give the companies a break and try to keep them if you can.
JC: Um-hmm.
BB: Hoyt, what did you feel about the comment that we%u2019ve heard--and this is the demise of the textile industry--what do you think about the comment that if they%u2019d give us our raw product, we still couldn%u2019t compete? I guess, meaning that it%u2019s hard to believe that folks can work so much cheaper somewhere else than what we worked.
HL: Yeah.
BB: So what is your feeling on that?
HL: Well, that%u2019s, hmm--. That%u2019s the reason, you know. They go overseas to get the cheap labor. They don%u2019t want to pay the American people, you know. They%u2019re not going to pay them top dollar.
BB: Since we were involved in a lot of textiles, they were using cotton. I mean, we still--we had synthetics here and there. Some synthetics, but with the growing business related to the textile industry, the loss of the cotton business as we knew it is one of those filter-down things that shutting down kind of magnified, right?
HL: I%u2019d say so, yeah.
BB: You don%u2019t see much cotton being grown in Cleveland County now, do you?
HL: No, no. Sure don%u2019t.
BB: Did you realize--while we%u2019re on cotton--did you realize that most of the cotton grown in Cleveland County was not used in Cleveland County?
HL: Yeah, I did. Yeah, I did, yeah. Most of the good cotton come from--where was it? The delta--Mississippi, down in there, yeah.
BB: And Texas.
HL: Yeah. I don%u2019t know what they done with our cotton, Buzz, really.
JC: Why do you think they did that?
HL: Well, I guess they growed the wrong kind, didn%u2019t they?
JC: Yeah.
BB: Well, you had to have a longer staple.
HL: Yeah.
JC: Seems like it would have saved some money to grow the right kind right next door.
HL: Yeah.
BB: Well, do you ever think about the fact, with that in mind, if our cotton here was shipped somewhere else, why can%u2019t we still grow it and ship it somewhere else? Have you ever thought about that? You%u2019d think that we%u2019d still be able to operate our farms because we were shipping it somewhere else.
HL: Yeah. But, you know, back when we farmed, Buzz, you know they didn%u2019t pay nothing for cotton--twenty cent a pound. You know, when we worked at Cone, it got up to a dollar a pound, didn%u2019t it? The good cotton--. You imagine a five-hundred pound bale of cotton?
JC: For twenty cent a pound.
HL: Twenty cent a pound.
BB: Um-hmm.
JC: It%u2019s no wonder people moved from farm to the factory.
HL: Well, that%u2019s right.
BB: When you were coming up and you picked cotton, do you remember what you were paid a pound?
HL: To pick it?
BB: Yeah.
HL: Hmm, I believe it was about a dollar a pound. Does it sound high?
BB: It sounds low. You mean ten cents a pound?
HL: Yeah, it was--well, you%u2019d pick all day for about two dollars is about all you made.
BB: Okay, okay. Well, that%u2019s--when I picked cotton in high school, a bale was thirty--let%u2019s see, we got paid three-and-a-half cent a pound, so that would be three dollars-and-a-half a hundred.
JC: Gosh!
HL: Yeah, yeah, for a hundred pounds.
BB: For a hundred pounds.
HL: Yeah, that%u2019s about right.
JC: How did you make any money doing that?
HL: Well, you know, there wasn%u2019t no money. It wasn%u2019t like it is now; you didn%u2019t have no credit cards.
BB: Right.
JC: I guess on the farm y%u2019all grew everything you ate and had hogs and everything.
HL: Well, everybody did, yeah.
BB: Did your growing up like you did--was your dad%u2019s chief income farming?
HL: Yeah, and then he worked at Florence Mill, you know, in Forest City.
BB: Okay. So he didn%u2019t have to worry about running to the town for his seed and his fertilizer?
HL: Well, yeah, he did.
BB: They did do that?
HL: From one year to the next, everybody did, just about. But back then, Buzz, everybody swapped everything out, you know. You go over and help that fellow; he%u2019d come and help you. You raised your wheat and took it to the mill; you got your flour. You measured that.
JC: You could percentage it out.
HL: Yeah.
JC: Right. Was there much sharecropping going on in this area? Were they half-cropping?
HL: I don%u2019t think there was in Cleveland County, was there, Buzz?
BB: I didn%u2019t--I don%u2019t--I know what you%u2019re talking about, but I don%u2019t remember anybody doing that.
JC: No? Did people mostly own their land?
HL: Yeah, most of them owned their farms, yeah.
JC: Okay.
BB: Now, if they had a family that worked for them, they paid them just like we%u2019d be paid if we were picking cotton.
JC: You paid them by the hour or by the pound?
HL: Yeah.
BB: Yeah, the sharecropping was probably a thing of the past here, when Hoyt and I came along. We%u2019re about--he%u2019s not much older than me.
JC: [Laughed].
HL: I%u2019m older than you! [Everybody laughed].
JC: Now let%u2019s not get in a fight about this, fellows. [Laughing continued]. Yeah, %u2018cause you used to hear--my family sharecropped up until the sixties, and there were still sharecroppers in Eastern North Carolina until the nineties. There was an older--some of the tobacco farming going on.
HL: Probably still a lot of it going on now.
JC: Yeah. What was Shelby like, though, as a town? I mean, what was going on in town? What kind of stuff did y%u2019all do when you were working back in the sixties here in Shelby?
HL: Well, it hasn%u2019t changed a lot, really. I%u2019m going to tell you; it really hasn%u2019t.
JC: It hasn%u2019t changed a whole lot?
HL: Not a whole lot, has it?
BB: Not from what I see.
HL: No, not from what I see, no.
BB: The biggest thing I can remember is that--had three or four theaters right in the middle of town.
HL: Yeah, well, they all had that, you know. All the towns had three or four theaters.
JC: When would y%u2019all go to the movies?
HL: Ten cent a--it was ten cent to go to the movie.
JC: Ten cents. Did you go on Saturdays, or--?
HL: Yeah, you could take a dollar or fifty cent and you thought you was rich.
JC: [Laughed]. Stay all day.
HL: Yeah, there wasn%u2019t no money.
BB: Going back to the early days, do you remember what you made back when you started, weekly pay or--you mentioned something about a dollar-and-sixty-five an hour, but--.
HL: Yeah, I think it was, well as I remember, it was seventy-five dollars a week. That%u2019s when I was running the slasher--seventy-five dollars. Two dollars and something an hour, I%u2019m sure.
BB: Yeah. This mentioning the slasher--you know I was experienced with a slasher where we had a top and bottom beam. Did you have that at Cleveland Cloth? Did you have the single warp?
HL: No, we run about three different kinds sometimes.
BB: Did you?
HL: Yeah, yeah.
BB: You have an over and under?
HL: Yeah, we%u2019d have a bottom beam and a top beam, and sometimes we%u2019d have two up there.
BB: Would you?
HL: Yeah, to make that stripe. We were making Hart, Schaffner and Marx suits, and them things had pinstripes in them, you know, and you had to have so many different yarns.
BB: Yeah. Did y%u2019all ever run the--we used to call it Metlon? It was a metal yarn, kind of. Did y%u2019all run any of that as far as what synthetics you run?
HL: No, we run a lot of DuPont filament, you know, and we run a lot of silk. I don%u2019t know what they made out of that silk.
BB: What per cent cotton were you using? Do you remember?
HL: You mean mixed in with the--?
BB: Yeah. Was you running as much as fifty percent?
HL: I%u2019d say so, yeah. Yeah, I can%u2019t remember right off.
BB: What type filling did you use?
HL: Well, most of it, I think, Buzz, as well as I remember, was nineteen-two ply.
BB: And it was cotton, mainly?
HL: Hmm, sure was.
BB: Did you ever see much two-ply synthetic thread? Two- or three-ply synthetic thread? There%u2019s an all-cotton when they plied it.
HL: Well, now up in the Throwing Department they did ply it up there some, you know. But I think most of it was cotton.
BB: Okay. Now did you say Throwing Department?
HL: Yeah.
BB: All right, explain that to me because that%u2019s one thing I never had any experience with.
HL: Well, you%u2019ve got to set it up, you know, and you take two or three different kinds of yarn, wind it, and put it on cones. Of course, I was up there a little while. I wasn%u2019t there long enough to know nothing about it. You really had to know what you were doing to set it up, to get it to run out.
BB: Yeah. What did you have for--we wouldn%u2019t call it raw product, but what did you have coming into that department and what did you have going out?
HL: They just used yarn; they used yarn.
BB: All right. Would it come in on a cheese?
HL: Yeah, come in on a cheese or on a cone.
BB: And then it went back out on a cheese or cone?
HL: Yeah.
BB: You were just combining them?
HL: Yeah.
BB: Well, now where did the term %u201Cthrowing%u201D itself come from?
HL: Now, I cannot tell you.
BB: Hoyt, I was hoping you could help me on that.
HL: They called it the Throwing Department. I wondered, %u201CWell, what do they do? Throw stuff?%u201D [Everyone laughed].
BB: Well, you know, we%u2019re used to the term %u201Croving,%u201D that people used to call %u201Croping.%u201D
HL: Roping, yeah.
BB: It was actually--the term was %u201Croving,%u201D R-O-V-I-N-G.
HL: Yeah.
BB: So, I was serious when I said I didn%u2019t know nothing about--didn%u2019t know a thing about throwing.
HL: I didn%u2019t either. You know, I%u2019d been up there and been through it several times, and one of the guys I worked with, he was a supervisor there. He always set it up. It was kind of aggravating to set up, you know, when you%u2019re plying yarn.
BB: Yeah. Well now, being in the department you were, and at the stage you were as manufacturing the fabric, were you ever exposed to any combed yarn instead of carded yarn?
HL: No, not as I know of, no.
BB: Cleveland Cloth wouldn%u2019t have made anything that expensive or fancy that would have required that? The combed yarn, you know, is a fine yarn. It%u2019s got all the short fibers combed out of it.
HL: Well, no, I don%u2019t think so.
BB: Okay. What would the most of your fabrics end up being? Was it shirting?
HL: Well, we run a lot of suit stuff for that company in New York--Hart, Schaffner, and Marx, you know. Boy, them was high-priced suits and they were good. We just run a lot of different stuff.
BB: Yeah. What would you say the percent of solids versus stripes would be? Did you run more solids?
HL: Yeah, we probably did, but we run a lot of stripes too, Buzz. A lot.
BB: So you experienced a lot of--coming along when you did, you saw a lot of colors--different shades, I%u2019m sure.
HL: Yeah, yeah.
BB: Sometimes it makes you wonder why they have so many.
HL: Right, and then you had a pattern to go by, and you had to have that thing just right. You couldn%u2019t be one thread off. It would throw it off; it just wouldn%u2019t come out right.
JC: It would throw off the whole thing. Did you see the trends changing, like what people wanted in cloth as you were working in the plant from the sixties all the way up? Would the colors and everything change?
HL: Yeah, but it was the most conservative back then, you know, in the fifties and sixties. You didn%u2019t see all these loud colors.
JC: [Laughed]. People were a lot more conservative than they are now.
HL: Yeah.
BB: Well you know, this day and time we hear of a lot of recycling, and we all need to do it. That leads me to this: Were you able to go from one warp to another, keeping it on the same color, same style and everything, to where you didn%u2019t--unless there was a bad place made by the slasher people, were you able to weave it down plumb to the barrel of the beam?
HL: Well, we tried to, you know, yeah.
BB: I guess it%u2019s leading up to the question of did you have much waste?
HL: No, no. Now, we didn%u2019t have as much waste at Cleveland Cloth as y%u2019all did at Cone. It seemed like we had a tremendous bunch of waste up there.
JC: What would happen to the waste?
HL: Well, I guess they sold it to somebody, you know. You%u2019d have--people would come around that bought some waste and come around and pick it up. We didn%u2019t turn to cycling because we--I don%u2019t remember having no baler or nothing to bale it up with. I guess a lot of companies did.
BB: Yeah, when you think about it, there%u2019s a lot of processes where you re-do it. You can freeze melted ice cream back if you want to.
HL: Yeah.
JC: [Laughed].
BB: I just wondered %u2018cause you go from plant to plant, and you see some of them, like you say, that seem to have a lot of waste, and your folks over there were able to control it pretty more.
HL: Yeah, they was on top of that waste all the time.
BB: Now what about the quality of the fabric? Again, I guess we%u2019ve talked about it a little bit in one respect, but in per cent of all quality, what would it--what would it be compared to a hundred percent? Would it have been one percent? A half percent?
HL: Yeah, it would probably be about one percent, Buzz.
BB: One percent.
HL: Yeah.
JC: I think about--%u2018cause I didn%u2019t work in no mills, but I had family that did. They had left the farm kind of like you, and went to work in the mills %u2018cause they didn%u2019t want to farm no more neither [laughed]. I think about the change that had to have been to go from doing farm work to mill work, and what that meant for the family%u2019s economy. You know, how much more buying power you had as a mill worker or working in the textile mills, than you did as a farmer. How did that affect your life, really?
HL: Oh, it affected it a lot because you had a little money.
JC: Yeah--be able to buy what kind of things different?
HL: Well, I guess, food and everything else, you know. Back then, people growed gardens and growed it.
JC: Yeah. Did you keep growing a garden?
HL: Oh, yeah.
JC: What kind of stuff would y%u2019all--you%u2019d can and all that?
HL: Yeah, the old people, they canned a lot of stuff.
JC: Yeah.
HL: They didn%u2019t believe in wasting nothing. We%u2019re the most wasteful country in the world today, aren%u2019t we?
BB: By far, I%u2019m sure we are.
JC: It is a shame how much we do waste now. But y%u2019all, even though you left the farm, you kind of kept growing stuff to eat. Did most people seem to do that, seem to keep--even in town?
HL: Well, yeah, because there wasn%u2019t a lot of grocery stores. The A&P store--you didn%u2019t have a factory on every corner.
JC: Right. Cars--you said that y%u2019all drove back and forth. Did you get--when did you first get a car?
HL: I worked my car out when I was eighteen year old.
JC: What do you mean, you worked it out?
HL: I had to pay for it myself. Dad didn%u2019t pay for your car back then.
JC: Yeah. I had to pay for mine too. I know what you%u2019re saying.
HL: Yeah, I%u2019ll tell you something when you cut this off.
JC: [Laughed]. You want to cut it off, Buzz? You about ready?
BB: No, no, I was just%u2026
JC: %u2026You got a couple more? All right%u2026
BB: %u2026I%u2019ve got two or three more questions.
JC: Okay, go ahead.
HL: Buzz is a lawyer when he comes to this [others laughed].
BB: As far as the expected education today, how did it compare when--especially when you were getting to work--were there a lot of folks that didn%u2019t get to the eighth grade in school, or seventh grade? Did you have--did you work with a lot of people like that?
HL: Yeah, sure did.
BB: What about the jobs they had? Did you find that some of the people, no matter how smart they were--I mean how educated they were--they were smart and could run some comparatively technical jobs? Did you experience that with some of them?
HL: Yeah, yeah, sure. There were people--you know, they loved their jobs, you know it? They done a good job.
BB: Okay, I guess the next question would be, when you started, even at Stonecutter and then came down here, did you see many of the Afro-Americans? Were they working at the plants then, and what type jobs were they doing if they were there?
HL: We had a good many working in the warehouse at Cleveland Cloth.
JC: When did they start getting on the floor?
HL: Well, this was in the sixties, wasn%u2019t it?
BB: About the sixties. We may find another one I forgot to ask.
JC: All right.
BB: You knew a lot of people that were in the plant. Do you know of many that ended up going to--furthering their education, going to school, either completing high school or going to college after they had worked at the plant?
HL: Well, back then, there wasn%u2019t no Cleveland Community College; there wasn%u2019t no Isothermal back in the sixties.
BB: Uh-huh. So you didn%u2019t have that many?
HL: Not really, no.
BB: Yeah. Were they able to--were families%u2019 children able to get summertime jobs while they was out of school? At the plant, did they support that pretty well?
HL: Yeah, now they supported that because they always tried to help. People that worked there, their kids, when they was out of school and getting ready to go back--.
BB: Yeah.
HL: Of course, I know Cone helped my daughter a lot %u2018cause she worked a couple of summers up there.
BB: Yeah. Well, did they--did your plant have a scholarship program where the families%u2019 children could apply for and get?
HL: Hmm, I don%u2019t think so, Buzz. Now I could be wrong on that. I can%u2019t remember that.
BB: Yeah, that is a tough question, but some plants do that. You know, we hear of that happening a lot, and I didn%u2019t know if Cleveland Cloth%u2026
HL: %u2026No, not as I know of.
BB: Okay. What was the turnover? Did you have much turnover at Cleveland Cloth?
HL: No, there were some people that worked there for thirty or forty years, Buzz. No, we sure didn%u2019t.
BB: Out of the ones that you knew, what was the longest tenure that you remember? Fifty years, or--?
HL: No, I can%u2019t remember that--back that far.
BB: Probably had some that had a good many, didn%u2019t you?
HL: Yeah, thirty or forty year. I was trying to think about old man [ ] that worked there. He was a mighty fine fellow. He worked there about forty something years. You know Flay Gantt in Boiling Springs, don%u2019t you?
BB: Oh, yeah.
HL: Flay worked there forty-something years.
BB: And became a millionaire, so you can make good money [ ].
HL: Yeah, yeah. Oh, Flay worked for me a lot. I really thought a lot of him.
BB: Yeah, okay. How many total years did you work in textiles?
HL: About forty-seven years.
BB: Forty-seven?
HL: Um-hmm.
BB: All right, what%u2019s your feelings toward--do you regret it in any way? Would you do it again?
HL: Well, I%u2019m going to put it this way, Buzz. You had to do it back then. You%u2019ve got a lot more opportunities now than I had when I come up back years ago. Yeah, I%u2019d do it again. I sure would.
BB: Yeah, there%u2019s not much textile opportunities now.
HL: No.
BB: But as far as you being satisfied with your pay and working conditions, you were pleased enough?
HL: Well, I was pleased enough because everybody wants to make more.
BB: That%u2019s right. Okay, that%u2019s about all I can think of.
JC: About all we%u2019ve got. Is there anything we ain%u2019t asked you that you would like to say?
HL: No, no.
JC: [Laughed].
HL: I%u2019ve done talked too much now [everyone laughed].
END OF INTERVIEW

Transcriber: Mike Hamrick
Date: August 20th, 2009