JERRY HOPPER

TRANSCRIPT %u2013 JERRY HOPPER
[Compiled November 26th, 2010] Interviewee: JERRY HOPPER Interviewer: Andrew %u201CDrew%u201D Ritchey (DR) Interview Date: August 12th, 2010 Location: Shelby, North Carolina Length: Approximately 85 minutes
ANDREW RITCHEY: This is Andrew Ritchey here with Jerry Hopper. It is August 12th, 2010. We%u2019re at the Cleveland County Library here. We%u2019re going to be talking about Cleveland County, growing up in Cleveland County, and the music scene here. Could you just state your name please? JERRY HOPPER: I%u2019m Jerry Hopper. I was born in 1961 at six months in the old Shelby hospital. DR: And what%u2019s the date on that? JH: October 10, 1961, yes. DR: Three months early? JH: Three months early, yes. DR: Stunted your growth? JH: You could say so. [Laughter] People don%u2019t believe that I%u2019m a preemie, but yes, I was a preemie. DR: And you were born in Shelby? JH: Yes, I was born in Shelby at the old Shelby hospital. That was back in the days where it was two different wards and everything. Shelby was a different city than it is now, but I%u2019ve been here all my life except for the years that I left after I graduated from high school to work, but I still kept in contact. DR: Two different wards? JH: Yes, there was the Negro ward and the white ward, yes. DR: You said you went away after high school? JH: Yeah, after high school, around in the eighties, around about %u201985 I moved to Charlotte for a little while, and then I worked with a human service agency and I just traveled the state, working with juvenile delinquents and running programs for youth at risk. Then I came--even though I still lived in the Charlotte and Gaston area, I came back to Shelby about five years ago. I still live in Gastonia, but I work at Cleveland Community College right now. I%u2019m in the adult high school and GED program, so I guess I%u2019ve been in human services all my life. DR: Could we talk a little bit about your family life, growing up? What did your parents do? JH: Man, family life. Well, believe it or not, my father worked for Spangler%u2019s and Son, and that%u2019s the only thing that I can recall because that%u2019s where he worked when I was born and that%u2019s where he retired from, even though it went through name changes from Spangler%u2019s and Son to Concrete Supply, so I was familiar with a man who only had one job all his life. You know, I thought it would happen that you grow up, you get a job and that%u2019s what you do. Basically, that%u2019s the way it was until the king of cotton went south and a lot of things happened in Cleveland County to make it change, also when the textiles started closing down, and that really affected everything. As a matter of fact, my mother worked in textiles; she worked for Dover Textiles. That was Doran, Esther Mill, Buffalo, and the various other mills in the Cleveland and Gaston County area, so that%u2019s what she did. So, a two-parent home, an older sibling by seven years, and she was in high school, but when she left to go to college, it was ( ). It was almost being like a single child again too. But that%u2019s what the family life--multiple cousins, nieces, cousins, uncles and aunts and stuff, so it was good. DR: So you hung out with your cousins a lot? JH: I hung out with my cousins a lot, hung out with friends. I grew up on--the community was called Red Hill, and that%u2019s right up 18 North. Right now, Deer Brook Golf Course is on the other side of my parents%u2019 home, but all that used to be just field and stuff, and I used to play on it for free. It was called Red Hill because of the red clay and stuff. I used to go on the other side of the hills and visit with friends and stuff. Families started moving in. Well, my father built his home in %u201963. He purchased the land from Miles J. Wilson, and Mr. Wilson used to have quite a bit of land there. As a matter of fact, he would be what I would call my god-grandfather %u2018cause my grandparents, my grandfathers had passed away by the time I was born, so he was like the grandfather figure. He and his wife, Mrs. Vera, she was my grandmother figure, but my grandmother lived across the hill. She moved there later, so it was like, you know, we used to say %u201CWe%u2019re going over to the big house.%u201D That was the Kool-aid house, where all the kids would come and play basketball or go down into the field and play softball. They had baseballs and stuff, and just, you know, it was just a good, country life. DR: So you said your father built your home that you grew up in? JH: Well, he didn%u2019t personally build it. It was when he purchased the land and the home built for us. But as far as the concrete work, he did that; he%u2019s a concrete mason by trade. DR: Okay. And you were the oldest sibling, did you--no, I%u2019m sorry. JH: No, I%u2019m the baby. DR: The baby? JH: Yes. [Laughter] Yes, six-foot-five and two-hundred-and-ninety pounds later, you wouldn%u2019t think that I was, but I am the baby. I have an older sister, and right now my wife is the smallest one in the family at five-eleven. My mom%u2019s six foot and my sister%u2019s six-two, my dad%u2019s six-three, and I%u2019m six-five, but I was the runt of the litter. [Laughter] DR: [Laughter] Wow. Your sister was seven years older, did you say? JH: Yeah, she%u2019s seven years older than I am now. DR: So, did you hang out with her much at all? JH: At that time, that%u2019s the one where the mother told you to take your brother with you and stuff, but yeah, she did. She taught me well. We both had to take piano lessons when we were younger. As a matter of fact, Mrs. Dixon, off of North Post Road, and Mrs. Enloe, from the Enloe Mortuary family, both of those guys were my music teachers at the time, the piano and everything. But yeah, my sister taught me how to do the waltz and stuff. You know, those things that you don%u2019t want to do when you%u2019re a guy, but she said it comes in handy, and through the years you realize, you look back and say, %u201CWell, yeah, she was right.%u201D You know, all the things that you need to learn in life. She was one of those teachers that did it before she left to go off to college and become a teacher herself. DR: So did your parents make you take piano, or did you want to take piano? JH: It%u2019s not a %u201Cmake-you%u201D thing; it was strongly suggested. Yes, because you need to do something; you just don%u2019t need to sit around and just watch television all the time. You were either outside or you were doing something. You were at the church for missionary night; you were doing something constructive with your life. But, I did it at that time, and it came back and helped out. I know when I started at Burns in %u201976, they were hunting for someone that could play the piano, and I could do that, so I joined the marching band for a little while, but after that, I stopped playing after high school. DR: Did you march around with a piano on your back? JH: Well, no, we had a xylophone and the bells. You know, percussion and striking instead of those little ivory keys, pushing them down and the hammers hitting it; we would do it ourself with the mallets when I supported the drum line. But yes, my sister, I used to hang out with her and we would go to Holly Oak Park and--there was a place called Flat Rock in Shelby also too, which is an old community that%u2019s gone. She had friends there from school, and we would just socialize. DR: Did you ever embarrass her? JH: Of course, little brothers always embarrass older sisters, don%u2019t they? DR: Can you give me an example of any? JH: I guess just boy behavior at the time. You know, %u201CStop doing this. Don%u2019t do that,%u201D and, you know, those things. I guess, through the years, we can sit back and laugh about it now. Sometimes she would have friends over and then you were outside and you%u2019re looking inside the window; you%u2019re not supposed to be in there because that%u2019s her friends, and you%u2019re making the funny faces through the windows, and I guess that%u2019s embarrassing because you%u2019ve just got this little bitty brother who%u2019s Dennis the Menace. [Laughter] All those types of behaviors. DR: You were saying you lived kind of out in the country. JH: Yes, it was so funny; we lived four miles from the city limits at that time there. As a matter of fact, it%u2019s wild now; the city limits have almost come out to where we lived out. But even in going to school, we didn%u2019t attend the city schools even though we were closer to the city schools than we were to the county schools, so we were bused to Washington, which used to be the all-black school at that time, so we went through that change, but not starting kindergarten. I was one of those first classes, integrated classes; I was at Jefferson, right here in the Jefferson community of Shelby, which is no longer there because Jefferson has been moved out on Wyke Road. That%u2019s where I first had white classmates, and hung out with them, so we started building from there. Yeah, I stayed out in the country. We had family members who had grazing cattle, milk cows, horses and everything, pigs, so, you know, the whole gamut. It was nothing to go out in the morning time and see eggs laying around, and people would fix them. DR: Did you have any favorite things you liked to do out there? JH: Playing in the creek, just playing with family members, building forts, everything that you do--well, young people don%u2019t do these days--but everything back then, yeah, I just loved to be outside, but I also loved to listen to music too. My mom used to play the small forty-fives of different gospel groups and stuff, and be working on Saturdays cleaning the house and have
( ) and me singing and everything, but basically that was it. We could play together and I used to love to walk in the creek, looking for tadpoles or small fish and everything like that, and hunting for, like, little bear dens, rabbit dens, and just playing around outside. That was it; that was the favorite thing, just being with family and friends and just hanging out. DR: When you were growing up, you say your mom played a bunch of gospel forty fives. JH: Yes. DR: Did you have a favorite? JH: No, because--well, yes and no. I used to like Harold Williamson. He was a local guy, a gospel guy in the Wondering Souls. I used to listen to his music. Then she would also--Rance Allen, E.C. Cannon--he used to play some too. We enjoyed Sam Cooke; she played a lot of Sam Cooke. That%u2019s how we were just exposed to music as a total--it wasn%u2019t just a conglomerate thing, so even with country music--. Growing up, Sundays, you were watching either Ed Sullivan, Lawrence Welk. Then Charley Pride, he sings country, so you just had that whole exposure. It wasn%u2019t pigeon-holed into one category of music because music crossed all bounds. You know, you look at it and then you see Dolly Parton and you see Lionel Richie and then both make the same and they cover it, and then it flips to the jazz side, and Thelonius might cover it, and it%u2019s like, %u201Cwait a minute; it%u2019s the same thing.%u201D That%u2019s how we just enjoyed music as a whole. DR: So when you were growing up, you enjoyed all music? JH: All music. I didn%u2019t say I liked everything, but, see, back in the day when we were growing up, FM hadn%u2019t come around yet; it was AM. Our favorite station was 61 Big WAYS, out of Charlotte, and there was a radio DJ named Chuck E. %u201CBoo-Boo%u201D Barron, and it%u2019s so funny that I remember that, and then Wolfman sometimes. Late at night, those waves would bend, so sometimes at night you could pick something up from Chicago or whatever, but you had that music. Then in the seventies when FM kicked in, that%u2019s when Power 98 and some other stations--but, for us, it was Big WAYS, and then here in Shelby, you had WOHS and WADA. You would just sit there and you would wait; you would hope a group would come on. It was just a blend of total music. Then, also at WOHS, that%u2019s when they used to have all the high schools come in and do news time on weekends. I know my sister did that at one time too, so that gave me a little exposure of what the radio stations were about. It was no more just this little box where everybody%u2019s voices came out, but you saw some of the things that were taking place. I think that hurt Cleveland County a lot when WOHS left and became Magic 96 and then it became something else, and then became a beast in its own, where everything--you know, formats change all the time, and it becomes something trying to make money and staying up with the next person in talk radio, and then it flips back and forth. But yes, the whole broad band of music, you enjoyed. It depends on where you%u2019re at and what type of mood you%u2019re in, what type of music that you want to listen to at certain times. You know, whether you want the Gaithers, The Oak Ridge Boys, Alabama--. And I know it%u2019s strange, coming from someone of color, but music is music, and you have at that time to understand, so it%u2019s more out there. Even today, music has become its own animal, that even people are self-producing and they%u2019re getting out there; they%u2019re selling on the internet; they%u2019re playing on the internet. As a whole, even with Cleveland County, the people understand the talent that%u2019s in Cleveland County right now. Bunny Clyde is a jazz musician who%u2019s went out, and that%u2019s a good guy to talk to. The late Bobby London and the Ambassadors, gospel, the ( ) Singers, you know. You have Ray Cabaniss, who used to produce shows out at Holly Oak Park. The slogan was %u201CRay Cabaniss Productions, so it%u2019s got to be good,%u201D but it%u2019s funny; that%u2019s when people used to go put--you know, now they say %u201CPost No Bills%u201D on anything, but they used to put those big posters on the side of the barns and stuff--who was coming--you know. Even with Bunny Clyde, there%u2019s a young man in Cleveland County right now; his name is Clyde Cumberlander, a wonderful sax player, and he%u2019s played with some nationally-known artists. He%u2019s at that level that he can do his own thing also. So there%u2019s music in Cleveland County. Even with country today, with Jimmy Wayne, you know. Gaston County, Cleveland County, that%u2019s a battle because his family is in Kings Mountain too, but he has some on the other side. We have a rich county with rich--you know, even with the Gibson, even with Scruggs, all those guys, there%u2019s music there. Sometimes you have to research it, but you%u2019ll be surprised what%u2019s in your back door. If you want gospel with John P. Kee, you had church groups from First Baptist at Lawndale, and family members there are singing backup and stuff, so, you know, music is rich in Cleveland County, and you can find it. You know, we%u2019ve become spoiled with air-conditioning, but we used to go to these big gyms and they used to have the big fans blowing, and just people coming out, have the fans, but the music was there and it was hanging out and stuff. DR: Do you remember the first show you went to? JH: Oh, man, [laughter] I went to a gospel show at Holly Oak Park, and the Blind Boys were there. That was a Ray Cabaniss production, and even though I was young and we were playing outside, you still could hear it, so you could go in and out, but it was just one of those things that you take for granted, but you don%u2019t take for granted because at that time you don%u2019t realize what greatness you%u2019re in, but sooner or later you learn to appreciate what it was and where it was going. Like, with the ( ) Singers, the Ambassadors; those were shows that you heard. Highway 74 is an artery, and before 40 and 85, all those guys, to get to Asheville, you had to come through Cleveland County. If you were going to Charlotte, you had people who would do concerts in Charlotte, head towards Asheville; they would come up through 74. I worked in Wendy%u2019s when I just got out of high school--the restaurant--you%u2019ll be surprised how many groups would stop by. You know, the Four Tops dropped in one day, and I%u2019m like, %u201CWhat?%u201D You know, you laugh, but I was, like, %u201CI know him, I know him,%u201D and I%u2019d say, %u201CYou%u2019re from,%u201D and he%u2019d say, %u2018Yeah,%u2019%u201D you know? So we met the Four Tops. Guys from the Commodores came through one time, and they stopped by when they come through. One day I saw this big tour bus come in, and I saw this guy get out, and I said, %u201CThat guy looks like Kenny Rogers.%u201D The guys, like, %u201CThat%u2019s not Kenny Rogers.%u201D I%u2019m like, %u201CMan, I%u2019m telling you that%u2019s Kenny Rogers.%u201D Well, he sent an aide in to take and get the food. He didn%u2019t get off the bus; he%u2019d gotten out to stretch. I was being nosy, and I came out and I looked and I just smiled, and she walked out the door, and I said, %u201CIs that who I think it is?%u201D She says, %u201CI don%u2019t know; who do you think it is?%u201D I said, %u201CThat%u2019s Mr. Rogers, ain%u2019t it?%u201D and she just smiled, you know, but we knew who it was. He came out and he waved at everybody, and then he got back on the bus, so we didn%u2019t want to be like groupies and just grab the bus, but we were there. So people would come through and everything. And it used to be--McFadden and Whitehead used to have family members out in the Light Oak area, so people, they would come and they would visit with Cleveland County and just hang out, so there%u2019s been several groups and several musicians who have come through this county even to relax or just to visit. DR: So did you give them free Frosties as they come through? JH: No, man, I don%u2019t think that Tar Heel Capital would appreciate that. Plus, we had bills to pay also, so no free Frosties; no, you%u2019ve got to pay like everyone else. DR: You said when you went to school in kindergarten, it was one of the first integrated-- JH: Yes. DR: What was that like for you? JH: It was different, but not different. The reason why I say it was different but not different is because my mom had raised us that everybody is equal, even though people might not treat you equal. That%u2019s the way it%u2019s supposed to be, but, you know, things are different sometimes. I can remember when there were different fountains on the court square. One side was for blacks and the other side was for whites. But even with the school, it was cool; we all were friends. They say that young people, when you%u2019re first born you have a blank slate, and it%u2019s what people write on those images that make you who you are, and things that you observe, so the only thing we saw were young people together playing out on the playground, learning something, taking nap time together and everything. Even growing up, sometimes you see--I think that through life and in life now, everything, even though some things change, some things remain the same. There%u2019s no such thing as a perfect society, so there%u2019s always going to be issues that come about. It%u2019s just how we relate and how we deal and how we react to those issues once they come. Because even today, as a grown man of forty-eight years of age, there%u2019s still things out there that you see that you don%u2019t agree with that sometimes you have to question yourself about also. I remember when we left junior high, at that time at North Cleveland, which is up in the Belwood area, to attend Burns in %u201976. In %u201975 there was a riot up at that school. It was a fight and everything. I wouldn%u2019t say riot; I would just say fight. You didn%u2019t understand; people want you to choose sides. Well, you have friends and you don%u2019t want to choose sides. That%u2019s y%u2019all%u2019s problem; you either work with--we still, even though some folk, but I remember the first day of class, and I had to figure out whether it was freshman hazing or was it something different? I%u2019m running down, trying to make the class and I%u2019m tripped, and I slide right in front of the teacher and the teacher sees me slide, but nothing was said about it. So I got up, dusted myself off, and went on in the class and just left it at that because sometimes you don%u2019t want to make a mountain out of a molehill. But would I trade my life in Cleveland County for somewhere else? No, because it%u2019s been that enjoyable, and to be exposed to different things--also, my mom used to bring me to the Boys Club right down the road from here and drop me off. And Mr. McKay, that was the greatest guy up there, and that taught me that people of different races can work together and have fun and do things. As a matter of fact, we made this ingot paper weight, a round thing, had a Boys Club stamp; I still have that to today. [Laughter] It was just something, the Boys Club. And they also had a music room and stuff, and they had the little bitty instruments and all that stuff too. And the radios and the pool tables and stuff, so you always, we were always around something. There was something always to keep us active, even if it was going on church picnics to one of the local parks, something like that, we were always--you know, it was there. The music was there; everything was there. DR: When you were in high school, and you were saying you listened to all these kinds of music, did you favor something over another? I mean, did you rebel from your mother and stop listening to the gospel forty-fives and start listening more to one thing or another, or did you just--the whole way? JH: No, because even when you were in band we had to play certain things, but then we tried to cover some of the local stuff that was upbeat also. I know I got in trouble one day in one of my English classes and I was sent outside, and this teacher across the hall--I credit her to helping me turn around too--Mrs. Lillian Cline--she brought me in, wrote a note, sent me to the principal%u2019s office. The next thing I know, I%u2019m in Shakespearean Literature. [Laughter] And then, when you realize those thees and thous are the same thing as what you%u2019re speaking now--it was just a different tone--you understand more. Even with Beethoven, when you listen to his symphonies and stuff like that--even with whatever genre of music you listen to, there are certain songs of that genre that you just don%u2019t like, but then there are certain songs that you love. Well, then that%u2019s the aspect of those crossovers when you drop into, like, country, jazz, fusion, or gospel; there are going to be certain songs. Because if we look at gospel, and you look at the gospel way, there are gospel songs that have those country influences, the ones that have those rock influences, and the ones that have those rhythm and blues influences, and different songs are covered. Even if you go to a church today, if you go to a Presbyterian church, if you go to a Baptist church, if you go to a Holiness church or a Methodist church, %u201CNear the Cross%u201D is sung--the same words, but in different fashions. So even in high school, and I credit Dr. Pat Matheney, who was our drum instructor and our band instructor at that time, with being broad-minded enough to bring different types of music to us to let us hear and then we play them. Because even in school, in band you had the marching band and then you had the little jazz ensemble that we played when the small things in the auditorium--. But, as a whole, R&B was what I enjoyed listening to, but I%u2019m not going to tell you that on the other side there was something else. When Voyager was playing or someone else was playing, we wouldn%u2019t listen to it because at that time, like I said, with 61, with WAYS being the station, you were open to a lot. And then on Sundays, when you were looking at Lawrence Welk, you%u2019re open to a lot. People laugh, but I still enjoyed Hee-Haw with Grandpa Jones because it was just their music; it was entertainment. With the Ed Sullivan Show, it was entertainment. Of course, we waited because we wanted to see someone who looked just like us come on that television and sing. The first song with the Supremes and Diana Ross, that was cool, so you waited for the next one. Then when Aretha Franklin came on, you waited. Just like when Ray Cabaniss brought acts to Shelby, you wanted to see that. Even though you couldn%u2019t be there sometimes, at least to be able to look on that barn or wherever he posted that bill and saw somebody that looked like you that was singing, that%u2019s what you enjoyed. I know we were in high school when our friends, they used to DJ a lot. Sometimes we used to try to DJ and just be spinning records, but you just played what people wanted. I remember one of the shows we went to at the old coliseum, and that was a Parliament-Funkadelic show, and then we went to a Lakeside show. Yeah, you know, that was cool. I was fortunate that my parents let me attend those shows, but it was a whole new, different ball game. Teddy Pendergrass%u2019 show, you know--just, Kenny Rogers, all the--what? Yeah, most definitely, and more shocking: Garth Brooks, whatever. It was just music as a whole, but the key thing, I guess, with Cleveland County and the music stuff, you also want to hear somebody when they said they were from Shelby, it didn%u2019t matter who it was because you wanted to see if you know that person, or if you saw that person, because it was that kind of connection with it. DR: Now, you said you deejayed in high school some? JH: After high school, we used to go--one of our friends on the Hill used to have the %u201Ctwo wheels of steel%u201D and his LPs and stuff, so we used to hang out and just go to parties and do everything just to spin records. That was before DJs started making money. You just wanted to have fun; you just wanted to be part of the crowd, so you had the Sugarhill Gang music, Parliament-Funkadelic, the Lakeside, all those guys; the different music that was just that genre. At that time, for us, it was just that pop, that R&B, you know, the rhythm and stuff. It wasn%u2019t the hip-hop stuff. [Laughter] Even though with Sugarhill, it was a whole new, different type of rap gang. DR: When you were in marching band, were you in other bands too? JH: No, just the one for high school and that was it. DR: And how was that, in terms of--? JH: It was a different experience and the way I got into band is I had to go to summer school one year, decided to slack off on one of my classes and had to make that class up. The band director, Mr. Matheney, came and said, %u201CDoes anyone in here know how to play a piano?%u201D I didn%u2019t say anything; we were just sitting there, and one of my friends opened up his big mouth and said, %u201CYeah, Jerry can.%u201D He said, %u201CSon, let me see you a second. This is what we%u2019re hunting for,%u201D and he took me down and we played some things and read some of the music and played some of the stuff by ear, and I became part of the band. They changed my schedule and that was it. It was unique; got to see a lot of places that I don%u2019t think I would have been able to see if I hadn%u2019t been part of the band because we used to go do competitions all over the state. That%u2019s when the bands really had uniforms; they wouldn%u2019t walk around here in sweatpants and a t-shirt or shorts and a t-shirt. Band boosters invested in having stuff A-1 for us, and we won a lot of competitions. DR: Do you remember any of the shows? JH: Oh, man, we went to Sylva one--well, a lot of shows. You had Sylva, Southwest Cabarrus--we would go. The drum line was number 1. I came in on the tail-end of the deal; the year before I joined the band, they had just won the Carousel Parade in Charlotte. We were Burns High Phantom Marching Band, and Phantom Regiment, that%u2019s what it was called--Burns High Phantom Regiment, and best drum line around, period. Even in that, he used to take us to see those marching bands like the Blue Devils and those guys sometimes that come to Charlotte now and just watch how they march. We used to do the same thing. Our main objective was to defeat any percussion line that we could and hope that the other band members, like the brass and the horns, would do their part so that we could win overall, but as long as the drum line won, we were happy. And you laugh, but I remember our senior year, and this was when Pat Matheney had left us and we had a young man named Carl--I think his last name was Roloff. The cadence was to the Andy Griffith Show, and yes, I know, and I was the rhythm part of that and I had to play the solo. It was so funny, but, you know, we did that, and then it went from Andy Griffith to a cover song. I can%u2019t remember the cover song, but it had a nice bass beat to hit. It was like, %u201CHow do you go from this into that?%u201D and he said that gives it that shock value because you%u2019re expecting this, and then they blow you away with this. DR: And you graduated from high school? JH: In 1979. DR: And then? JH: I tried the community college circuit for a while; it wasn%u2019t me. I started working, and as I was working, I started volunteering at the mental health center for a little program called Tot Spot. It was so funny; I left work one day and one of my friends needed me to drop something off for his girlfriend. She was working at Tot Spot. At that time, the program director--her name was Betty Corry--and she saw me come by and she said, %u201COh, you come to volunteer?%u201D and I said, %u201CNo, I come to drop something off.%u201D She said, %u201COkay, I%u2019ll see you tomorrow.%u201D I%u2019m like, %u201CHuh-uh,%u201D and a couple of weeks later, I dropped something else off, I was like, %u201COkay.%u201D Our family has always been human service oriented, and I started to volunteer a little while. This young little man named Rusty; I fell in love with him. It was almost like a big brother type of thing, hanging out and just dealing with that. One day they asked, %u201CWell, you need to apply for a job. They%u2019re looking for some young men who%u2019ll work in the field,%u201D and I said, %u201COkay.%u201D I went over there and I applied and I was hired. I worked with the status offenders and some of the behavior young men, helped set the program up. At that time, it was called the Willie M. Program, and we set that up in the old health department, and we also used the old Douglas School, which is now First Baptist Church. I did it for about two, three years, and got on with an organization called Lutheran Family Services, but that was more residential. I worked my way up the ladder until I hit a block in the road, and they said, %u201CWe know you know everything, but we need someone who has a college degree before we can move to the next level,%u201D so that made me say, %u201COkay, fine.%u201D I go up there and it seems like every time I get my associates degree, %u201CWell, yeah, we want you to move up again, but we need somebody with four years.%u201D %u201COkay, fine,%u201D so I enrolled at Gardner-Webb. Gardner-Webb had always been around. I graduated from Gaston, and left Gaston College; Gardner-Webb said, %u201CWe%u2019ll take your whole associate%u2019s degree and that means you%u2019ll only have to do two more years and you%u2019ll have a bachelor%u2019s. With Gardner-Webb--I graduated from Gardner-Webb in %u201997, so it was like this adult going back to get my four-year-degree. I%u2019m working eighty hours a week and still trying to go to class, but we made it through. DR: So you were working while going to school? JH: Oh, most definitely working while I was going to school. Somebody had to pay the bills. Then I left Gardner-Webb and there was, like, %u201COkay, we%u2019ve got this other position for you, but we need somebody with a master%u2019s, and I started working on my master%u2019s at North Carolina A&T in adult high school. Along the way, my mom got sick, so I just dropped out of the master%u2019s program. One day, I will go back and complete it. That%u2019s a goal for right now, but at this time, I work at Cleveland Community College in adult high school and the GED program as a recruiter and the GED examiner. But yes, education is something important to our family. You know, start out with your high school and just continue on, because learning is what I try to tell the young people is to continue to get your education, because every day you live is a day closer to you getting that goal. DR: What do you do as a recruiter? JH: I go out in the community and speak with people face-to-face, talk to groups. Hopefully, if we go to a high school, we try to tell the students the importance of staying in school, and it%u2019s best to stay there and complete that part of your goal, because it%u2019s harder as an adult to come back, because you do have to work and try. But also, it%u2019s harder to get a job if you do not have that high school diploma or that GED to get that there. I also set up at different sites, like maybe tax-free weekend, we%u2019ll set up at the mall. There is something going on, a festival or something, we%u2019ll set up, and at the fair time, we set up a booth. Like, weekend-after-next, they are having the COMMIT program out at the fairgrounds; we%u2019ll be setting up out there also, so we can show families what we have to offer to help them out as a community. We%u2019re trying to come as a whole to help decrease the violence and increase the education as well as the other programs that are needed throughout the county. DR: Do you have any moments with these kids that you%u2019re either encouraging them to stick with it, or, you know, when you were working with juvenile justice stuff? JH: It%u2019s funny; when I left human services I thought that I would probably--that was it, but I%u2019m running into the same ones, and sometimes they%u2019re coming in and saying, %u201CYou know, Mr. J, I wish I had listened to you because I see,%u201D and the first thing out of my mouth is, %u201COkay, stop right there. You%u2019re here; let%u2019s get it done.%u201D And then you get the ones who come by and they stop by and say hey and introduce you to their children that they%u2019ve had, and %u201CThis is what I%u2019m doing.%u201D It was, like, %u201CIt%u2019s not a half-million dollar home, but I have a place,%u201D and you explain to them %u201Cthat as long as you%u2019re satisfied, you don%u2019t have to worry about anybody else%u2019s statutes or goals%u201D that they have for them. But yeah, there are moments, and then there are sometimes you%u2019ll lose one. They%u2019ll be incarcerated for a while and they come back in here talking, and you%u2019re trying to get the horse back in front of the cart and let them know that %u201Ctoday is the day to start fresh and do what you have to do.%u201D There are moments when you have sad stories. Recently, one of the young ladies that completed the program was injured fatally in an accident, but you know you saw that life, but you were able to touch that life at that time. You%u2019ll have one come in that, at the time, didn%u2019t understand what was going on or what you meant, and they follow through with it and it%u2019s %u201CBoy, I%u2019m glad we surely listened. I%u2019m running a company%u201D and %u201CI%u2019m supervising so many,%u201D and I say, %u201COkay, but we always told you, you had that leadership quality, but it was up to you to decide that you have it and had faith in yourself to continue to do what you have to do. So, yeah, there%u2019s a lot of moments. Each student has their own story. I%u2019m most proud of a young man who%u2019s sixty-eight years young, who came in and went through adult basic ed classes and then the GED classes. He successfully passes the GED at sixty-eight. He did not use a calculator at all on the math part of the test. I asked him, %u201CMr. George, why didn%u2019t you use the calculator?%u201D He said, %u201CWell, if you don%u2019t know what you%u2019re putting in, how are you sure what you get coming out is going to be right?%u201D and we started laughing, but he successfully completed it. So, yeah, there are moments and times. Even with the music aspect, sometimes when we%u2019re signing in, getting ready to take the test, I%u2019ll have something to play in the background until we get there, because if I have a large group, that time that they%u2019re waiting for everybody to finish signing in, they become antsy and nervous, so it just breaks the monotony. Sometimes they ask me why am I playing that elevator music? And sometimes I%u2019m playing jazz or whatever, you know, and just start laughing. The funny thing about young people today, you can play music for them and they would swear that the person that you%u2019re playing has stole their person%u2019s music. You have to go back and get the original casting of it and play it with them and say, %u201CRead the copyright date on here: 1976. Read the copyright on your guy. Some of your guys weren%u2019t even born in %u201976; it was later,%u201D and I said, %u201CSo, see, your men sampled my men%u2019s music,%u201D but it continues to crossover new. You need to look at something fresh, and that%u2019s what these young people are missing too, but they need to understand they are the fresh that we need to discover. If you don%u2019t give them the opportunity or challenge them, then they%u2019re not going to go anywhere. DR: So, with dealing with all these young people, eventually they%u2019re going to grow up and become adults. And you%u2019ve been here, basically, your whole life, so with these younger people growing up and becoming adults, where do you see Cleveland County going? Are you hopeful? JH: Oh, you%u2019re always hopeful. Most definitely hopeful. In any war, there%u2019s going to be casualties, okay? But it%u2019s what you learn from the battles that%u2019s going to help you out in the future. You will always have members of the community that are going to grow up and go somewhere else, and they might return later in life. You always have members of the community that%u2019s going to be here all their life. The key thing is that we have productive members of the community that continue to train and to explain things to the future, which are the young ones that%u2019s coming up. Sometimes when you look in some of these young people%u2019s eyes, I guess what%u2019s missing is that part of hope. Where do I go from here? Even in society, man has always had to reinvent himself. It%u2019s the key of giving them the tools to reinvent themselves. Okay, so cotton is gone; what will we do now to make our money? How will we take and survive? We%u2019ve always bartered. We even barter today, even though people say, %u201CWell, I don%u2019t barter.%u201D Well, yeah, when you go pay that money, you are bartering because you%u2019re trading one thing for another, you%u2019re just not fussing about what you%u2019re trading to get it, until you get out of the store and you say, %u201CI can%u2019t believe I paid that for that.%u201D Even with the downturn of the economy, you notice how many more trucks you see riding around with lawn mowers on the back? People have to become more adaptive to what they need to do to survive, instead of saying what am I going to do, figure out how I%u2019m going to do it. I remember, growing up, I used to love to come to town. You had J.C. Penney on one side, had Belk right down the road. There was a young man named Mr. Welch; he always kept me in the right type of shoes at Hudson%u2019s. Then you had Woolworth%u2019s and you had Rose%u2019s, all those, and then when things started moving out of town, now, if you look, there%u2019s different little small shops that%u2019s in Shelby, so even Shelby is metamorphosing into a different--I don%u2019t want to say %u201Ccreature,%u201D but a different environment. When you come to Cleveland County, when you%u2019re coming through Shelby, the first thing you see is that big sign that says %u201CWelcome to Shelby--City of Pleasant Living.%u201D My definition of pleasant is totally different than your definition of pleasant. My definition of pleasant could be at the park one day with my nieces and nephews, running around, safe as everything and having fun, where somebody else%u2019s definition of pleasant might be on Moss Lake, just relaxing with a fishing rod in the water; don%u2019t care whether you get a bite or not, it%u2019s just that you have that choice. Those are different things that we have to obtain where we get to that level where everybody has a right to be wherever they want to be in that pleasurable moment and not sometimes feel like the county is in decay because we%u2019re losing all these different industries, but as the industries leave, one comes in. We have to embrace that to help supply for the people of Cleveland County. What is the next step going to be? I think Destination is doing that, and I think a lot of things that we%u2019re doing to bring revenue to help build revenue for the people of Cleveland County will inspire them to do more. It%u2019s like we%u2019re saying with music. I have seen people in a booth about the size we%u2019re in right now make it a studio, and just put the foam up there to keep the bounce back off of everything--make it, get on the computer, produce something and put it out there, and that%u2019s the way it is right now. You know, long gone are the days where you had that person who used to come and see you and say, %u201CYeah, we%u2019ll give you a record deal.%u201D Because when you wait on those and then after you get those percentage points-- which a lot of young people don%u2019t understand that the music industry is a beast in its own--,they think that they%u2019re going to sing today and drive around in a Mercedes-Benz and live in a million dollar house and be on MTV Cribs tomorrow. It doesn%u2019t happen that way. There%u2019s a grind out there. I do a jazz show on Monday through Thursdays on the Gaston College Radio on WSGE on the campus down there. You know, that%u2019s my alumni, and I love Gaston College, though I love Cleveland Community also. DR: How did you get into the radio thing? JH: I got tired of people saying, %u201CYou need to do voice-overs.%u201D Right. DR: Really? JH: Yes. I started thinking well, if enough people are telling me that, maybe there might be something to it. One day I was at home and I saw where they were needing announcers, and I%u2019m like, man, I did this before; I could go do this. What%u2019s the difference with me putting an LP on and spinning it and saying something to this, except for now it%u2019s going out on the airwaves. So I went through the training and everything and I volunteered. I started out with the program The Gospel Blend, okay? We go in there and you have Patsy Cline and you have Ricky Skaggs and you have those different artists, and now you%u2019re trying to mix Southern gospel with black gospel with up-tempo mid-range inspirational-- those types of things, that%u2019s where it goes. But then, when there was some empty time, they asked about a program. Myself and another DJ tried to talk to her about doing some oldies, and he was going to go, like, from sixty to seventies, and I was going to take the seventies to the nineties, but that didn%u2019t pan out. I said, %u201CWell, you know, what about jazz?%u201D because WFAE had stopped doing it and they went talk radio, so that was a couple of hours and they said, %u201CYeah, okay, we%u2019ll try it,%u201D and that%u2019s how I got into the jazz part. I love jazz. Chuck Mangione, a guy with, you know--. Then, after we had graduated, this guy from across the water named Paul Hardcastle was a whole new different type of fusion. I remember one day watching the Cosby Show when Rudy asked Bill Cosby, she said, %u201CDad, what%u2019s jazz?%u201D and he explained to her about doing that song about %u201CAll around the mulberry bush, the monkey chased the weasel,%u201D but then he took it to a different sound effect, and that was the best way to explain it. Jazz covers a whole different range of music, and sometimes young people will be listening to it and they%u2019re, like, %u201CThat%u2019s jazz?%u201D Yeah, because you can go from that straight edge all the way to this fusion. See, a lot of people don%u2019t understand, Duke Ellington was born in Lincoln County over here. That%u2019s one county over. Then Satchmo, all those guys have North Carolina roots also, but I just enjoyed the music, and so we%u2019ve been doing that. The radio as a whole itself is a different animal too, because it has to be productive and it has to make funds too, so sometimes things change out. A lot of public radio is going to NPR because they get more grants and more funds, but that%u2019s how I got involved. I was just volunteering. DR: And when was this? JH: Man, this has been about four years ago, but the jazz spot itself started in November, 2008, and that%u2019s what we do from ten to twelve, Monday through Thursday, and then we get up in the morning time and come to work at Cleveland Community. DR: All right. What do you like about the music you play? JH: Well, I enjoy that the music you play takes a person to another place sometimes if they need to. It helps them enjoy the place where they%u2019re at right now. The old Beatles%u2019 song, %u201CImagine%u201D; Herbie Hancock has covered it, and he just released a new song. I had a young man call me the other day, and he said, %u201CYou know, I%u2019ve been listening to you for a couple of weeks. They told me about you, and I just want you to know that I appreciate you for touching my heart.%u201D That song was his daughter%u2019s favorite song, and his daughter died of cancer about two months ago. He hadn%u2019t begun the grief process yet. When you%u2019re a DJ, you know, you have the people call and request line, and you try to--you know, you want to accommodate, but you also have this other job that you have to do to get things going on. So, instead of rushing him off the phone, we spent that whole set, which was twenty minutes, a twenty-minute set of listening to him, to the point that he said, %u201CWell, I know you%u2019ve got something else to do. I%u2019m going to let you go%u201D and it was like, %u201CNo, I tell you what. Just hold on a second,%u201D and I did my station ID and I flipped the next song and announced everything and then came back to him. So, you know, music is healing; it%u2019s soothing, and it does take me to places. Two weeks ago, we had just rain, and we were on the way to the station, and we were playing some Kirk Whalen and some Kim Waters, and I said, %u201CYou know, I was on the way to the station today,%u201D and I said, %u201CHave you ever rode through the country?%u201D I%u2019m a country boy--and the windows down, and all these different fragrances come through the window and it makes you flash back to where you were the first time you really thought about that smell? You know, it%u2019s like even when the honeysuckles come through the window, and you remember that picnic where everybody was having fun and you were at Big Mama%u2019s house and everybody was together, and nothing bad happened that day? Either you%u2019re coming down and somebody%u2019s freshly cut their grass and it just kicks back one of those old memories of where were you that day? It was a Saturday morning and you couldn%u2019t wait to hurry and get the grass cutting done so that you could go play basketball and softball, or either you remember somebody who had come to visit? Jazz takes you to those different spots, just like gospel takes you to those different spots. DR: Is Cleveland County a good place for gospel, a supportive place for gospel and jazz music, or are gospel and jazz a way to sort of escape from things? JH: No, you don%u2019t escape from things. Let me explain when I say that you%u2019re going to escape from things, I think that Cleveland County can support anything that Cleveland County wants to support because it has that, when I say revenue, I%u2019m not talking about just monitorial revenue, but that other support, that love. Because even with our %u201Cwant it and want it now%u201D society that we have right now, I mean, even right now, I remember when the internet first came up, everybody had dial-up, so when it got on the screen, it got on the screen. Then when broadband came and everything was like bam! bam! bam! bam!, now today even bam! is too slow for some folk. Music in Cleveland County, the music is here, it%u2019s offered; it%u2019s whether you want to come and support it or not. There%u2019s been different types of concerts, just letting people know. Sometimes folks are like, %u201CWell, I don%u2019t want to go to a show. For the money I have to pay for a show, I could buy a CD.%u201D That%u2019s true, but then, to have that live experience is a whole new different ball game. I think that Cleveland County will support things they want to support. It%u2019s always been that way. Is there revenue for it? Yes. The acts that come to Cleveland County must understand that they%u2019re not going to be like upscale charges like what you can do when you were in New York City or whether you%u2019re in Atlanta or Charlotte, it%u2019s a whole new different ball game because it%u2019s a whole new different culture and a whole new different expectation. Everybody wants a Mercedes, but everybody wants the payments to be on the Chevrolet budget. Sometimes you have to pay for what you want to enjoy it, you know. You can%u2019t go out and buy ground round and think you%u2019re going to have a filet mignon burger; you have to pay for what you want, and I think there are people in Cleveland County that%u2019s willing to do that, because if it%u2019s worth having, paying for it and having, it%u2019s worth sacrificing to save to get what you really want. I was always told if you want a car, don%u2019t just go buy a car because you can buy a car. If you want this certain car, save up the money, but make sure that you can keep up the maintenance and everything for the car that you purchase. It%u2019s just like buying a house. I don%u2019t need a five-bedroom house. I%u2019m comfortable in my three-bedroom home, so don%u2019t just buy it just because you can buy it, and then later on, %u201CWell, that was wasted space.%u201D But I think that Cleveland County will support music, and I think as more of the baby boomers come back home, that it will be a different change of culture also in Cleveland County again, to help support different things, the arts and everything. I mean, you see what%u2019s going on now. If you had told me in 1970 that the courthouse was going to be refurbished for a museum--no. But still, if you look at it, it%u2019s there. DR: Talking about remembering the first time you did this, the first time you did that, sort of going back to that moment, do you remember the first time you heard bluegrass? JH: The first time I heard bluegrass? Yeah, as a matter of fact, I do remember the first time I heard bluegrass, and it came across the television. And even though it was referenced as bluegrass, to me it%u2019s just country, because that%u2019s what it was. But it was up in Lawndale, and I think this was probably around %u201974, %u201975, and there was a restaurant that was on the side of the main road, 182, and there was this old guy playing a banjo. I mean, he was picking that thing too. He was just there, just practicing, but he was playing it, and I%u2019m like, %u201CMan, that%u2019s the same thing that we hear on TV,%u201D but that was a live setting. That%u2019s when I truly distinguished the different aspects of the music right there, but it was nice. It was cool, and it was just a guitar with a different setup, and I%u2019ll leave it at that. But yeah, I%u2019ve been fortunate to see bluegrass played, true bluegrass, with a washtub and the string and the one piece of wood, and then the washboard and the spoons and stuff too. I experienced that one year in Asheville. Unique, very unique. DR: Unique? JH: Unique in the way that--? DR: Sometimes it can be used as a euphemism. [Laughter] JH: No, unique in the way that this man is taking this tub, drilled a hole in the bottom of it, put a piece of wood on the side of it and is getting a sound out of the bottom of it that harmonizes with someone else playing a banjo, someone else playing a washboard, just different types of sounds. But then when you reference it and you go back to tribal music, that%u2019s the same thing as somebody playing gourds, a tree trunk, or either a hollowed-out trunk that%u2019s been made into a drum, with the skin of a goat stretched over it, or a bladder or something like that. So, man has always used different instruments to have different sounds. It%u2019s just getting those pitches right that they work together, but that%u2019s when I first--you know, the bluegrass thing being up in northern Cleveland County. DR: You talked before about 74 and all the musicians coming through, and you talked about a lot of musicians coming from the area. Do you think there%u2019s something specifically about Cleveland County that%u2019s supportive of music and musicians? JH: I think they%u2019re getting back to basics. You have this true highway of music now called the internet that you can bring anything into your house that you want to bring into, and not everything that you bring in that you think is music, quote, unquote, and my definition wouldn%u2019t qualify as music, okay. To me, music is something that you can play five, ten years down the road and it still has quality to it. It%u2019s not something that%u2019s right there at that time. It%u2019s like the earlier rap with the Sugarhill Gang. You can still sing that, your children can sing that, your nieces and nephews can sing that; it%u2019s no problem. Some of the junk that%u2019s out there today, you know--. My thing is, %u201CIf you wouldn%u2019t play it for your grandmother,%u201D and sometimes that%u2019s hard to say now, with these young grandmothers because they%u2019re out there playing it too, then there%u2019s something to be said about it. Is it something that%u2019s going to be quality that you can hear later? It%u2019s like I said, I think Cleveland County has a lot, but again, a lot of musicians say it%u2019s a grind, and it is a grind now to get people out to enjoy your music, to want your music. I know sometimes they still do gospel concerts at different churches, and just getting out there and getting people to understand you slow down at certain times. You know, your day is divided in twenty-four hours: eight is supposed to be for play, eight is supposed to be for work, and eight is supposed to be for rest. Well, usually, now it%u2019s sixteen to twenty for work and then you figure what you%u2019re going to do with the other four, so sometimes we have to take the time to sit back. And it%u2019s to the point sometimes people use that music as an escape, and it%u2019s not really an escape; it%u2019s a distraction. You know, you walk around with your Ipod with your mp3 or mp4 and you%u2019re not really concentrating on the music because you%u2019re trying to figure out something else what you%u2019re supposed to do the rest of the day, which means you%u2019re not concentrating on whether you%u2019re driving or whether you%u2019re walking, and that%u2019s what the accident comes from. So now we need to take time out for self and to realize those certain things. Lizz Wright was in Shelby and it was a great concert, but now people need to understand there%u2019s more to Cleveland County than just going to work, and that you need to involve yourself in the county and enjoy the things that they have to offer. You know, the Alive After Five concerts and stuff, those are the great things where the county is bringing in folk, and you don%u2019t have to pay for nothing. It%u2019s a different experience, and you should always try everything. I tell my least nephew, %u201CThere%u2019s several things you need to do in life. Number one is get outside your city, get outside your county, get outside your state, and if you can, get outside your country.%u201D And even in getting outside your city, that means get outside into your city and see what%u2019s going on. There are several people that live in Cleveland County, that live in Shelby, and they still don%u2019t know where certain parts of the city are. You have to get outside your community; it%u2019s a broad thing. I worked with one young lady; this young lady was thirteen years of age--thirteen years and had never been to McDonald%u2019s. Now, you explain that to me. At thirteen and never been to McDonald%u2019s. We used to take them out on family vacations. That year the church raised enough funds we took them to Disney World. We%u2019re almost at the Georgia line, and she turns around and she said, %u201CAre we in Charlotte yet?%u201D and I%u2019m like, %u201CDear, we%u2019re outside the state of North Carolina.%u201D When we got to Disney World, there was a shock to her. She lived with us for four months, and she was able to go back home. I have no idea what she was supposed to do to get her back. Usually, when the students would lead a program, we would give them a victory dinner, and you wouldn%u2019t believe where she wanted to go for her victory dinner. You worked their program; the church would let you go anywhere you want to go. She chose McDonald%u2019s. The very first McDonald%u2019s that she had, off of Garrison Boulevard--I mean, off of Wilkinson Boulevard--was the same McDonald%u2019s she went to eat for her victory dinner. Those are the things, when you ask me, have any special things happened with young people? Yes, that right there. But with the music in Cleveland County, yes, it can be supported and I think it will be supported. It%u2019s going to have to take time, and people are going to understand. It%u2019s like, every year, everybody wants a pay raise. The cost of living goes up. Yes, it does, but sooner or later, something has to top off because if you don%u2019t, then it breaks. We have to become comfortable so that if that salary is our main objective, we have to be comfortable with that. You can%u2019t continue because if the salary is increased, that means that the price increases, which means that you want the salary to increase. It%u2019s that cause and effect, and I think with music the cause and effect will be that it%u2019s here, it%u2019s offered, it%u2019s just getting them interested in coming and doing it. It%u2019s just like with the museum: you can%u2019t know where you%u2019re going unless you know where you%u2019ve been. Because if you go without knowing where you%u2019ve been, you%u2019re more at cause to repeat what you%u2019ve done before, which is a waste of time and money, unless you know a better way to do it and you just want to look back. DR: You%u2019ve talked about your nieces and nephews, and then, day to day, you%u2019ve been dealing with, helped mentor a lot of kids, mentoring a lot of people. Do you have a family of your own? JH: Just me and my wife. Basically, my nieces and nephews, the ones that I have through marriage, and then I have god-nieces and nephews and some godchildren. The main, I guess, concept--people say, %u201CWhy don%u2019t you have children of your own?%u201D Well, I%u2019ve been dealing with raising everyone else%u2019s, helping some folk out, so I have--. That aspect of part of my life is there. Like with any other family, we have issues that we work through, but the key thing is that no matter what, we have to deal with what we work with, and we deal with it as a family and we%u2019ll continue on. Sometimes, tough love is needed and sometimes it%u2019s not. I know, growing up, being disciplined, I remember when my mother used to lecture me. I%u2019d rather have a whipping than to be lectured, because once you get whipped, the pain goes away and you go do it again. But if you%u2019re lectured, when you get ready to do it, that lecture comes back and you think about it. It%u2019s like, aw, man, it takes all the fun out of it. [Laughter] People say, %u201CWhat do you do for a living?%u201D I say, %u201CI deal with cute behaviors.%u201D They say, %u201CWhat do you mean, you deal with cute behaviors?%u201D I say, %u201CYou know, when they%u2019re two and three, and you think it%u2019s cute, and you don%u2019t do anything about it. Now, they become twelve, thirteen, or fourteen; it%u2019s not cute any more. But see, when it was cute back then and you should have handled it, then you%u2019re not, so now we have to deal with it.%u201D We talk to our nieces and nephews and we let them know--and even the small cousins--that, okay, for every action, there%u2019s a reaction. So, before you do anything, think about what you%u2019re going to do and think about it. Is it going to be the reaction that you want that you can live with? If not, how is it going to affect everyone else also? Because your behavior affects not only you, but the family. My niece is getting ready to go to the University of South Florida. She goes in Orlando right now, and she has scholarships. She%u2019s so happy because that was her main goal was to be able to go to school and not have to be a burden on anybody, even herself, that she could put herself through school. Well, I have a nephew who went through school too, but he%u2019ll tell you it was hard because he had to work to help make up some of that money because that%u2019s just part of the responsibilities that you have to do. But the key thing is that everything in life worth having is worth paying for, and sometimes you have to sacrifice for those things to get where you want to be. DR: You%u2019ve talked about sacrificing a few times. Can you tell me, maybe, one of the goals that you%u2019ve had, that you%u2019ve obtained that you had to sacrifice for? JH: Yeah, getting my college degrees, because I had to work at that time instead of listen. It%u2019s not something I%u2019m proud about, but it was a lesson. When I graduated from high school, I received a scholarship, a partial scholarship to help go to college, but I decided I wanted to hang out instead of going to class sometimes and then didn%u2019t turn it in paperwork and stuff. I was on academic probation, which means I lost the scholarship. So, the next time you had to pay for your own classes and then get your GPA up to do that. Well, I decided to just continue to work. Like I said, when I got my job, I%u2019ve always wanted to know my supervisor%u2019s job and role too, not because I wanted their job, but I figured as a team, we would work together; one helps the other. You know, it flows that way, so everybody%u2019s happy. But then, when my supervisor left, they wanted me to step in and I did, and I started and I%u2019m doing all this stuff, but I%u2019m not getting the funds. She said, %u201CWe want to give you this, but you need the education,%u201D and at that time, that%u2019s where the sacrifice came in. I was working sixty, seventy hours a week. I had to put fun--I had to put my music stuff on the side to get this degree and to obtain this paper so that I could continue to do my job, because I had left the job that I was in to move up, so they hired someone else. So, if I did not obtain my degree at the time, then I would have been out of a job, because I couldn%u2019t go back. But that was the only sacrifice, sometimes that free time. I was sometimes wanting to go when I was, like, no, you have to knuckle down and do your bookwork. It used to be funny sometimes; I would be at the table, doing my work while the kids were at the table doing their homework, and they were laughing at me. It was like, %u201COh, you got study time too?%u201D They would come in and say, %u201COkay, it%u2019s time for study time.%u201D I was like, %u201CNo, I%u2019m working on--.%u201D %u201CNo, Mr. J., you need to come over here.%u201D I was like, %u201CWho%u2019s the role model and who%u2019s the one who%u2019s supposed to be getting modeled?%u201D and they would start laughing. But, you know, in life there%u2019s a lot of time you have to make sacrifices, and I know that my parents made sacrifices. I know there are things that adults want sometimes, but when you have children you have to step back and make sure that they have what they need. I didn%u2019t say %u201Cwant;%u201D I said %u201Cneed.%u201D Not getting what they want, sometimes that%u2019s a blessing also. A lot of times we need to let these young people understand that sometimes it%u2019s about the needs and not the wants. Sometimes we spoil them so much that when it comes a time that they can%u2019t get what they really want, there%u2019s issues. They don%u2019t realize that sometimes it%u2019s not what you want, it%u2019s what you need at that time. If your electric bill is due and the baby still needs a pair of shoes, we%u2019re not going to go buy a pair of high-dollar shoes and let the lights get cut off. You%u2019re just going to have to wear these. Kids used to call them %u201Cfish heads%u201D or %u201Cskates%u201D or something like that. You just have to wear these until we can do better. I know one of my nephews wanted a pair of shoes one day and he called me, and he said, %u201CUncle J?%u201D I said, %u201CWhat%u2019s up?%u201D He said, %u201CI need these pair of shoes for school.%u201D I said, %u201CWhat did your dad say?%u201D %u201CDad said he ain%u2019t buying them.%u201D I said, %u201CWell, what makes you think I%u2019m going to buy them?%u201D He said, %u201CI just called to see if you could help me out.%u201D I said, %u201CNo, you called %u2018cause you thought I was going to buy them, right?%u201D He said, %u201CYeah.%u201D I said, %u201CWell, I tell you what. If it%u2019s okay with your parents, what we%u2019ll do is whatever you make, I%u2019ll match.%u201D %u201CWhat does that mean?%u201D He said, %u201CYou%u2019re going to match whatever--.%u201D I said, %u201CNo, no, what does it really mean?%u201D He said, %u201CWell, I guess that means you%u2019ll pay fifty percent.%u201D I said, %u201CVery good,%u201D because you always want it to be a teaching lesson. He said, %u201COkay.%u201D Well, by the time he raised the money, he didn%u2019t even want the shoes any more. It was a different pair, which was cheaper, but he still--. So, sometimes it takes time for you to realize it wasn%u2019t that important and you can do some other things too. It%u2019s like, %u201CYeah, man, %u2018cause if I buy this pair instead of this pair, I can get a pair of pants and a shirt too.%u201D I said, %u201CYou can get you a whole outfit, can%u2019t you?%u201D I said, %u201CWhat else did you learn?%u201D He said, %u201CThat if I come and ask you something, you%u2019re going to let my parents know.%u201D I said, %u201CYeah, because you never go behind your parents about anything. You let them know, and we can work through those issues.%u201D That%u2019s a sacrifice, you know, that free time, just to get what you want. DR: Yeah. Now you talked about some important things to get out of the city, get out of your county, and get out of your state. Why are you, I mean, [pause] still here? I mean, what keeps you in the area? JH: You know, I ask myself why did I come back to Shelby? There%u2019s got to be a reason. I%u2019m a man of faith; I believe in God, and I believe he has a purpose and plans for everybody. Although I%u2019m here, I%u2019m not here. The reason why I say that although I%u2019m here, I%u2019m not here, is that I%u2019m here because I want to be, which means that I%u2019m free to go wherever I want to go. In September, there%u2019s going to be the Lowland Jazz Festival in Charleston. Okay, I%u2019m going down there to work the show; I%u2019m taking my wife; we%u2019re going to make it a weekend. I%u2019m out of the county; I%u2019m out of the state; I%u2019m out of the city. But then I come back. I try to get other folk to come with me too. A whole new experience. There%u2019s a lot of people who run from Cleveland County, but it%u2019s like leaving one church and going to another church. The same issues you have, they have also. It%u2019s jumping one side of the fence to the other side of the fence. You know where the grass looks green on the other side of the fence? It%u2019s because you%u2019re looking over that side of the fence. But guess what? When you jump to the other side, if you look back, your grass might be greener than what you jumped from one side to the other. I was with Lutheran for almost twenty years, and they started downsizing, but when I left mental health to go to Lutheran I was of that mindset, okay, this is the core group of young people that we have. I will not leave this until that core group is gone. I didn%u2019t really want to get tied into the new group because I know they%u2019re going to be passed off. Here went Lutheran, when I left the living aspect and the programs, because when I left the programs, I went to the administrative side, doing clinical work and traveling the state, it still was easier for me to leave, although I go. I think that no matter where you are or what you do, you don%u2019t forget the trenches. That%u2019s what happens in a lot of companies. People that start out on the baseline get promoted up and they forget where they come from, so they%u2019re not in contact; they have no connect. They%u2019re making decisions--whether they connect--that affect other people and they don%u2019t understand that, where if you keep that connect, the decision made may be the same, but it might be different because now you have that constant connect with no one doing that. I know a lot of people say, %u201CI don%u2019t see you at this meeting.%u201D I say, %u201CWell, I live in Gaston County now.%u201D There%u2019s a lot of people in Cleveland County that need to be tied in, that need to be the ones that are out there twenty-four-seven, but I will help out wherever I need to help out while I am here. Even sometimes, you%u2019re helping out because that%u2019s your home. People say, %u201CWhen you recruit, what%u2019s your hours?%u201D A recruiter recruits twenty-four-seven, because even once you%u2019re off, if somebody comes to me and I%u2019m at the mall and they want to know about adult high school or GED program, what am I going to tell them? Call me at eight o%u2019clock Monday morning and we%u2019ll discuss this? No, that%u2019s a potential person who needs help right then and there. So it%u2019s like, %u201CYeah, we offer this. This is what time and this is what%u2019s going on. I appreciated your stopping by.%u201D So you become--it%u2019s your job, %u2018cause when people see you--like when--you%u2019re a UNC-Chapel Hill student when people see you. They see you more than Andrew. Okay, you%u2019re that Chapel Hill student, but you%u2019re also the son of--you also do this, so you become those many things and you never know who or what you%u2019re going to be to one person at a time that they%u2019re going to need. I might need for you to be that UNC-Chapel Hill student so that you can give this testimonial why somebody needs to be in school, but I also might need you to be Andrew, son of--and explain how that has affected you in life and everything. So there%u2019s different key components that you are that we have to work with. With me being back in Cleveland County, there%u2019s components. Although I do not live physically in Cleveland County, I%u2019m still here every day. My parents still live in the country where I grew up, so I%u2019m checking on them also. You know, sometimes it%u2019s nice to go back there and sit on that back wall and just look out over the hill and just remember those days. Everybody laughs and says, %u201CWhen are you going to play on Deer Brook?%u201D %u201CNo, I%u2019m not paying money to play on dirt I used to play on for free.%u201D That%u2019s the running joke, but you know, one day I%u2019ll go over there and I probably will play, just to see how things change. But I hope that explains why even though I say I%u2019m here but I%u2019m not here, I still have that opportunity to go. Education, that%u2019s given me the opportunity, and the choices in life have given me the opportunity. That%u2019s why I tell people, %u201CWhen you can go, go.%u201D Every man works, why? To be able to retire, right? But what happens when you retire? You%u2019re so broke down, you%u2019re so despaired, and you have so many health issues that you can%u2019t do anything, so while you%u2019re young, if you can go, go. Do those things. Every man should go on a mission trip, and you don%u2019t have to go across the waters to go on a mission trip; you can do a mission trip within your own city, within your own state, within your own country to see what it is. There%u2019s someone out there that always has something that might not measure up to what you have, but to them, it%u2019s theirs, and you might feel that they need help. There%u2019s somebody out there to always ask that is not going to measure up to yours. We go across the world, helping other countries, but then we have people in our own back yard needing help also. We have to take time to do that because that helps a man%u2019s character grow. DR: You said you go to your folks%u2019 place and sit on the back wall and look out. Is that home to you? Are there any other%u2026? JH: %u2026That%u2019s where I was raised at. DR: Yeah, but are there any places like that in Cleveland County, whether it%u2019s a street corner or just that back wall where you go and you feel like%u2026? JH: %u2026Okay, but see, you have to be able to enjoy life where you%u2019re at, and at that moment, take it. I mean, I remember I used to run a program down in Earl, and how we used to come the back way from Charlotte and go down 29 to get to Earl, go through Kings Mountain that back way. Well, you can go, and that%u2019s back there where Eaton%u2019s at. Man, that stretch of highway when you come past where the Kings Mountain Battleground and all that stuff is, on a great day when that sun%u2019s up, the sunset is beautiful, so that brings back--. Too, you go up to where my old junior high school was at, North Cleveland, up in Belwood. Now it%u2019s the community center, but you go back there and you--I know one day we were up there; they were having the rodeo stuff up there that day. I was putting up my flyers for school, and I was at the old store that used to be Flay Willis%u2019 store. Man, I used to go buy penny candy and go over there to the school and sell it for a nickel, quarter, whatever. You know, at that time, that%u2019s where they had recess at school, so after lunch you get to go outside and play. We used to play this thing where the boys would--you didn%u2019t have a football, but you had an old milk carton, and everybody just tackled and stuff like that. I just pulled the car over for a second and I just looked, and just that memory of everybody just running. It%u2019s like those old movies; it%u2019s like the Field of Dreams; if you build it they will come. When you%u2019re sitting there in all those memories, and you can see all these kids. You can see a time when, yes, there were some students who disrespected teachers, but it wasn%u2019t the norm that these things happened. It was out of the norm when a child would disrespect a teacher. But you would see the teachers out there, and you could just see where they were huddled up and then they would raise their hand, and you knew when the hand raised up, she didn%u2019t even have to open up her mouth; it was time to go in, and everybody was there and she was gone and her back was to her students. She wasn%u2019t worried about somebody throwing something at her, something hitting her, whatever; that%u2019s just the way it was. Those are the days that two guys would get into a fight, and then they shake hands when they got up. You were friends the next day. Today, you get into a fight with somebody, one of you might not get up. It continues; it rages on. I think one of the worst things, and the only thing I hated about the county is when these so-called gangs were trying to say, %u201CThis is my turf. That%u2019s my turf,%u201D and they were living in rented houses. So how can something be yours when it technically is not yours, period? How can you tell me that I can%u2019t come there because it%u2019s yours? That rationalization wasn%u2019t there, and that thought process is something that we have to work on. Is it worth dying for? But if you don%u2019t have purpose in life, then some folk think that it is. But yeah, there%u2019s several places around the county. I think, just go out to Holly Oak Park and you just turn in, and you remember the days when there was always a softball tournament in the summertime. Somebody was always out at the pond trying to fish. You know Holly Oak Park was the park. It was sad and I was hurt when they went and filled in the swimming pool, because that was one of the places where I used to go hang out even if you couldn%u2019t swim. Even though the city guys didn%u2019t like the country guys coming, but still, that was the place to go. On Sundays, I used to go over to the playground. That was back when--I won%u2019t say the chicken place%u2019s name--but that%u2019s when you used to go with that bucket of chicken and you have that picnic. It could be out more than two hours, and you didn%u2019t get sick. [Laughter] But you know, those types of things ago, but there%u2019s a lot of places. I%u2019d either go to Moss Lake, and you go to the original entrance of Moss Lake--now, see, with Moss Lake, I remember we used to go down through Light Oak and you could go through Clineland and that would take you through the back way to Stony Point Road, and now that%u2019s all underwater. We used to play on that dirt; that was wild. But there%u2019s just different places and different things that you go to. This is not a bad county. Is this the county where I wanted to be? No, but that%u2019s with anything, because you%u2019re always wanting what%u2019s better for your home and what%u2019s best for everybody in your community. So when you ever find someone who says their town is what they want it to be, then that%u2019s a stagnated town because there%u2019s always room for growth and understanding and working together as a whole to get those things done. But, yeah, there%u2019s a lot of memorable spots in Cleveland County that you can go. You walk up on top of Crowder%u2019s Mountain and get that sunset and you can see everywhere? And there%u2019s hills; you can go up to Belwood and different places and have picnics. If you go up 226 and you look out over the mountains, and especially on a partly cloudy day and then you see all those different splotches of where the clouds are moving; it%u2019s great, yeah. We%u2019re in a wonderful region of the Carolinas, Cleveland County is. You%u2019ve got all four seasons right here. If you want to be at the beach, you%u2019re there in two-and-a-half, three hours. If you want to be in the mountains, you%u2019re there in an hour, hour-and-a-half, so we%u2019re there. If you want cheap gas, you can go across the line in a couple of minutes. [Laughter] But this is a wonderful county to be in. We%u2019re a blessed county whether we know it or not. Could it be better? Yes, but we, as a whole, have to work to make it a better place, and understand that no one%u2019s better than the other, that we need each other, no matter what. DR: Thanks so much. JH: No problem. DR: I really appreciate it. Is there anything else you want to talk about? JH: No, I think that%u2019s it. Like I said, there%u2019s music in Cleveland County. Cleveland County has been blessed by music. Those were the days, though, when people used to have to travel and come, and that%u2019s the way it goes. It was just like with the wrestling thing that used to be out at the Shelby City Park all the time. Everybody sees WWF. No, Mid-Atlantic Championship Wrestling used to be the day. There was always entertainment in our county. I%u2019m glad that baseball is back, because we used to have a small league with the Pirates and some other ones, so that%u2019s a whole new thing. It%u2019s almost going back, because even with that, you know, working with the restaurant and even just seeing those pro players. It was funny; you would see somebody who was pushed down out of the majors back down to the minors, and they were coming back in. Those guys used to have those per diems, and they would come to the restaurant to try to eat off the per diem. Then you%u2019ve got this one who%u2019s just got pushed back, and he%u2019s driving a Porsche, and everybody else is riding around in this little Volkswagen Rabbit; it was funny. But Cleveland County has been great. It%u2019s affected my life in a way that I think has been both positive and negative, but if you had to weigh one with the other one, I see a positive ninety-five percent and negative, five percent. With that five percent even on the racial--you do your statistics, that five just totally drops off. That%u2019s constantly changing because of things that you have to live with daily. But I think this is a good county to grow up in, a good county to return to and retire in. But, see I%u2019m planning on winning the lottery, and I%u2019m going to go to a small island. That would be like the guy in--what is it? Where%u2019s the one where the guy had the island built? The one where Tiger Woods has a home also? I can%u2019t think of that name. DR: Dubai has a lot of that. JH: I%u2019m just going to go buy a lot of dirt and pour it down in the middle of Moss Lake and spill it out. That way, I could be close to home. I could just take the boat over and hang out for a little while, and just go back and just pull up the bridge and can%u2019t nobody come in. It%u2019s been a pleasure meeting you, young man. DR: Thank you.

END OF INTERVIEW Transcribed by Mike Hamrick, November 26th, 2010
Edited by Pat Watson, June 29, 2011
Sound quality: good