THE CABANISS FAMILY

Transcript
TRANSCRIPT %u2013 CABANISS FAMILY
[Compiled September 17, 2011]
Interviewee: CABANISS FAMILY
Interviewer: Dwana Waugh, Joy Scott
Interview Date: July 15, 2008
Location: Helen Barrow%u2019s house on Suttle Street, Shelby
Length: Approximately two hours, forty minutes
TANZY WALLACE: I wanted Stuart just to hear this, cause it%u2019s good %u2013 I want my kids to hear it.
DWANA WAUGH: Yeah. We can just start however you wanna start, or I just ask if you could talk a little bit about what it was like growing up in Shelby %u2013 what you remember. You could start on a snowy night, or rainy night [laughter].
TW: Are we going to start in order?
PETER CABANISS: We may get around to that ( ). [laughter]
TW: Momma %u2013 you%u2019re the first born.
HELEN BARROW: Well, we always had inside toilets %u2013 some people still had outside toilets, but we always had toilets in the house. We went to a all-black school %u2013 Cleveland School %u2013 I graduated in 1953, so it was from 1941 to 1953.
TW: It went first through twelfth?
HB: Um-hmm. All one school %u2013 first through twelfth.
TW: It was all the grades. Right here at Cleveland School, right over here on %u2013
HB: Hudson Street.
TW: Hudson Street?
HB: Over there at Hudson and Webber Street.
JOY SCOTT: What was the atmosphere like at Cleveland School?
HB: It was good. I enjoyed it very much.
DWANNA WAUGH: Do you remember any teachers, or principals?
HB: Yeah, the principal %u2013 greatest principal. The first principal was Bonnie Roberts, and when I graduated, the principal was James Hoskins. And he was the last principal of the all-black school to when the schools merged, he was still the principal of the sixth grade school there. One of my teachers was Miss Ezra Bridges %u2013 you know Miss Ezra Bridges? She was my third grade teacher. And Miss Louise Howell was my second grade teacher. Mrs. Cara Mack, first grade teacher. Mr. Devon was chemistry and science and math teacher, and Mrs. Martha Simpson was the English teacher. Mrs. Dorothy Womble was the home economics teacher %u2013 they called it home economics then. Mrs. Dorothy Williams taught history. Miss Tula Byers %u2013 she taught English also. [pause]
JS: What was Miss Bridges like as a teacher?
HB: Oh, she was beautiful. She was a very, very good teacher %u2013 she taught me third grade. She still remembers me [laughs]. She%u2019s over at the nursing home now, at Cleveland Pines. And she could tell you more about the ( ), the first school, the county schools, than I could, cause I wasn%u2019t born yet when that school was being run. So she could tell you a lot about everything. She%u2019s a very good historian.
DW: Did you grow up %u2013 we just learned about the communities %u2013 the Flat Rock community?
HB: Yeah, Flat Rock community. We lived on Pinkney St., over there where the post office %u2013 near to where the post office is now. That%u2019s when we lived on Pinkney Street, and Pete lived Pinkney Street too, until the redevelopment of the community, when my mother and father moved out to the outskirts of town, but we lived over there till the sixties, in the sixties, wasn%u2019t it? And maybe the seventies, cause we moved back %u2013 we moved back to Shelby %u2013
PC: I was in college when %u2013 cause I came home to help Frank and Raymond move up to Timberlake Drive.
HB: But that was in the seventies.
PC: It was in -- probably %u201978.
HB: Yeah, it was in the seventies. When they read about when then Flat Rock became another community.
PC: Urban renewal came through, and decimated %u2013
TW: %u201976.
HB: Was it %u201976?
TW: Um hmm. It was in the seven %u2013 well 197 --
PC: %u201978 then.
TW: Well, we were in high school when you all moved up to Timberlake.
PC: Huh-uh. I came home from college.
HB: Aunt Mildred %u2013 no, you were first year college.
PC: First year of college.
HB: Cause Aunt Mildred was here, and she was living with Mother and Daddy when we had to move her up there too.
TW: I remember being in high school.
HB: Yeah, when you were in high school they lived on the %u2013 but we lived here, we moved here in %u201974.
TW: Right.
JS: What was it like to go through that urban renewal process?
HB: Oh, I caught the tail end of it -- they were just going through, as people found places to move, the city would help them to move. Cause I think Daddy was about the last one to move, wasn%u2019t he?
PC: Yes, he was. It was a mixed blessing; there was mixed emotions. Most everybody that went through urban renewal was able to get a better house. I doubt if people could have sold their houses, and even the people who were renting, there was assistance for them to move into better houses. I would say %u2013 maybe forty percent, maybe fifty percent %u2013 actually moved from an all black community to an integrated community, including all my family. I think from the standpoint of having a better material quality of life, that was accomplished. Although from a community standpoint, there was definitely heart strings that was torn. Cause that was a community that had been together %u2013 oh for probably close to eighty, seventy years %u2013 since the early 1900%u2019s, with the church being founded by Mr. Yarrow Roberts %u2013 that%u2019s somebody you definitely want to talk to %u2013 her father or grandfather?
HB: Her father.
PC: By her father, Roberts Tabernacle Church, so %u2013 you know, there was excitement, a little %u2013 I don%u2019t know if trepidation would be the right word, but anticipation in %u201Cwhat is this new community going to be like?%u201D You know, I think once people settled, they %u2013 even though their material surroundings had improved %u2013 I think there was a great sense of loss. To the point that the Roberts Tabernacle began to have semi-annual Flat Rock reunions. And they%u2019ve grown in popularity over the past %u2013 how many years?
TW: A while.
HB: Is this the seventh one? I guess we have fourteen years %u2013 cause they do it every other year %u2013 so the last one was the seventh one.
PC: So you do want to talk to some people, like Miss Black %u2013 what%u2019s Miss Black%u2019s first name?
HB: Frances, Frances Black.
PC: Mrs. Frances Black, and Miss Lidessa Brooks, and %u2013
HB: Mr. Webber.
PC: Mr. Webber.
HB: And ( ) Burn.
PC: Mr. Burn, and Mrs. Hester Ann McKissey. You know, when it comes down %u2013 these are some of the long-standing members who are still living %u2013 of Roberts Tabernacle.
HW: And Roberts Tabernacle is still in the same neighborhood %u2013 it%u2019s right here up on Marion Street, so that was the church that was on Pinkney Street. Then %u2013 we said we wanted to still stay in the neighborhood, so the city helped us to find some land in the city that we could still stay in this neighborhood.
PC: Now, you know %u2013 to think about it -- I think that%u2019s probably the only black community that the community as a whole was displaced. And %u201Cdisplaced%u201D is kind of a pejorative term; I don%u2019t know if you would actually say %u201Cdisplaced,%u201D but relocated.
HB: Relocated, yes.
DW: Just the Flat Rock community?
PC: That%u2019s as far as I know %u2013 the Knot, and there%u2019s some places that house by house, but en masse %u2013 that was something that happened over a very short period of time %u2013 over a two year period of time %u2013 the community was %u201Cevacuated%u201D %u2013 how%u2019s that for a pejorative term? [laughter] We were refugees! Tell them that ( ) -- that renewal made us refugees in our own land! [laughter]
TW: Was Creekside part of %u2013
PC: Creekside was part of it.
TW: Flat Rock %u2013
PC: Flat Rock, Creekside, Blackbottom, and Jail Alley.
DW: [laughter] Is that really the name %u2013 Jail Alley?
TW: That%u2019s what they called it.
DW: Okay.
PC: Yes.
HB: That%u2019s where they put the jail %u2013 they moved the -- where the [claps] courthouse is now %u2013 that was part of Flat Rock. That was Arey Street Jail House.
TW: And there was a brick %u2013 I remember that %u2013 I used to come to Shelby in the summers %u2013 my dad was in the Air Force. And I used to come to Shelby every summer, and I loved Shelby because I remember that community. And every summer I would come for about two months, and my grandfather %u2013 I remember the store. I remember he would always have hot dogs, and I remember Chek sodas %u2013 Winn Dixie Chek sodas. And the whole neighborhood would come up there, and he would sell hot dogs for what %u2013 a quarter, ten cent, a quarter? And the kids would come up there %u2013 just the whole community, and everybody knew everybody. But I know I couldn%u2019t go no further than the church %u2013 I couldn%u2019t go %u2013 I knew my boundaries. But it was just a very loving community. People were very, very friendly. And it was like when someone came from out of town, from up north or whatever, it was like a homecoming. You know, just excited to see people come into that neighborhood. It was a very embracing neighborhood. [phone rings] And my grandfather also knew that black children did not have the opportunity to have extracurricular types of activities, especially during the summer. And I used to help him every summer %u2013 Pete and I used to help him every summer %u2013 he would have about seven to nine busloads of black kids and their families from all over the county. And I think it may have been %u2013 the most I can remember is ten dollars a ticket %u2013 and he would take them up to the Asheville Zoo, up to Lake Lure, and just get a full day outing. And he did that every year for a long time. See back then, kids didn%u2019t have Nintendo, all that, and those extra activies %u2013 and everybody looked forward to that. And I remember chicken, fried chicken %u2013 everybody had that %u2013 they had boxes of stuff! And everybody would share their fried chicken %u2013 it was just wonderful.
PC: It was a grand time. If you talk to people around, they will tell you that %u2013 that they miss those days.
HB: Yeah, they do talk a lot about that.
PC: And one of the things that I seen was the transformation, because people didn%u2019t have cars, and they couldn%u2019t travel. Then there was a brief period of prosperity, when the mills came to town and people were driving cars, people could go places; but then there was the onslaught of drugs in our community. And now you have a whole group of kids that don%u2019t get to go anywhere. Just like it was back then. You go to this neighborhood right down here, and some of these housing projects, and you will find kids that %u2013 you will find fifteen or sixteen and eighteen year-olds that%u2019s never left Cleveland County.
JS: What do you think it was about your father that %u2013 you know, it takes a special person to say %u201CI%u2019m going to organize this, and I%u2019m going to do this for kids that aren%u2019t mine; I%u2019m gonna do this for the neighborhood.%u201D What was it about him %u2013 more than just saying %u201CI know people don%u2019t have opportunities for recreation%u201D %u2013 but what was it that drove him, that motivated him to do this for the community?
HB: I guess he was just a caring person. He was very outgoing cause he had the first %u2013 the grocery store was the neighborhood grocery store. We lived next door %u2013 the house was here, and the grocery store was next door %u2013 so he was just a outgoing person, because they looked forward to %u2013 they knew that he would do something for them all. He had a caring heart for other people.
PC: I always said he was one of the early visionaries, and he could see that -- cause he gave us plenty of experiences. We always had magazines, and he always took us places, and he had enough vision to know that if he could create a sense of hope, or a sense of vision %u2013 if he could show you something of it in your surroundings, that perhaps you would strive to leave your surroundings. And you could help me with the terminology on that.
TW: A choice %u2013 that there are other options.
PC: That there was other options. And like Helen said, he was a very kind man, a very, very, very, very loving man; and he wanted to expose the children of Cleveland County to a world outside of their environment.
TW: And if he couldn%u2019t take them there, he would bring it here.
PC: Oh, that%u2019s so good!
TW: If he couldn%u2019t %u2013- like the singers and stuff, he would have %u2013 he was the first person %u2013 he had The Staple Singers out at Holly Oak Park. I mean, people came from %u2013 I know as far as Hickory %u2013 they came from all over. There was no entertainment %u2013 it was live entertainment at Holly Oak Park. [someone clears throat] I remember --
PC: And the Armory as well.
TW: And the Armory. He had Bo Diddley %u2013
HB: The Staple Singers.
TW: The Staple Singers, Aretha Franklin, Joe Tex.
PC: The Tams.
TW: The Tams.
HB: Who was it %u2013
TW: Kool and the Gang. [Laughter and everybody talking at once] I was fourteen years old --
PC: And the Bar-Kays.
TW: He had the Bar-Kays. I remember I was fourteen years old, and he wasn%u2019t going to let them stand him up. We drove to Winston-Salem, and he got Kool and the Gang, and they followed us to Shelby, and they stayed %u2013 I don%u2019t know if they stayed at the house %u2013 but I remember I met %u2013 Percy met Kool %u2013
DW: Oh wow. [laughs]
HB: Yeah %u2013 he swears he went to Winston-Salem %u2013
TW: He went to Winston-Salem cause that was their %u201Cgig.%u201D
PC: They were doing an outdoor concert in Winston-Salem, and the following night they were going to be in Shelby. He wanted to make sure them rascals didn%u2019t get lost between --[laughter and everybody talking at once] It was like %u201CI ain%u2019t gonna put my name on no program%u201D %u2013 everybody running around saying %u201CI knew they%u2019re wasn%u2019t gonna no Kool and the Gang!%u201D We wanted to get them here on their bus, so they could drive the bus around. He was a big promoter %u2013 he knew marketing like nobody else %u2013 before or since %u2013 him and Donald Trump would have been good buddies. [laughter] He brought them here on their bus, and then he made them drive that bus around town, so people would know %u201Cyeah, they here, they here!%u201D [everybody talking at once]
JS: So how did he come to know all of these people %u2013 he was just %u2013
TW: He was a %u2013 what do you call it?
PC: He was a promoter, and his father used to promote singings %u2013 Walt Cabaniss.
HB: He had a quartet group.
PC: Okay, yeah -- he had a quartet group.
HB: He had a quartet group. But Daddy didn%u2019t sing, he was the one that promoted ( ), but Papa had a group %u2013 he just carried his own group around.
TW: And it was always a family thing %u2013 Mama always handled the money when they came in. And I remember every summer coming down %u2013 he would have it at Holly Oak Park %u2013 and the two first black police officers -- they%u2019re now deceased %u2013 Mr. Bass and Mr. Brooks %u2013 they were always -- he would always security there at Holly Oak Park. But yes, I remember %u2013 what%u2019s his name? Stowe %u2013
HB: Wray.
TW: Wray. I was uptown %u2013 they owned Wray%u2019s %u2013 it was a family-owned business, it%u2019s not there any more %u2013 it%u2019s a clothing business that was uptown %u2013 I remember talking to him one time, and he said %u201Cyeah, I know Mr. Wray. I wanted to go see Bo Diddley up there at the Armory, and Mr. Wray told me to go upstairs.%u201D He was a white man. He said %u201Cyou gonna have to go upstairs.%u201D Because, you know, it was during the fifties or early sixties, and he said %u201Cyou can%u2019t come down here with us, you gonna have to go upstairs.%u201D
DW: How interesting.
TW: He let him come in, but he had %u2013 I think he showed people that they can defy how people define you. He was a risk-taker, and apparently there was something in him that said %u201CI don%u2019t have to stoop to what people%u2019s opinions are about me,%u201D and he just had the tenacity, he was a %u2013 I wanna say he was a %u2013 raw.
HB: Very daring.
TW: Very daring, just raw. You know, he was right there, but that compassion was there too. It was like -- he just wasn%u2019t gonna bow down.
PC: I think %u201Cbold%u201D would be a good term.
TW: Bold, yeah. Very bold.
DW: Was that his primary job, that he was just a promoter, and the neighborhood store owner?
PC: He used to hold between seventy and eighty primary jobs. [Laughter]
HB: This was extra. He had to have a job to take care of his family, so this was the extra. [everybody talking at once]
TW: He was an insurance man, he was in insurance.
PC: Insurance was his primary %u2013
TW: -- his primary, his base. Then he sold eggs %u2013
PC: He was a produce %u2013
TW: And he sold apples, canteloupes %u2013
HB: Peaches.
PC: Christmas trees.
DW: He was a man of all seasons! [laughter]
HB: He said he had to take care of his family, so he had to %u2013 you know %u2013
PC: He had a good hustle %u2013 he had hustle.
TW: You know the last thing I remember Daddy Ray %u2013 he was out there where Sky City used to be %u2013 where %u2013 out there on 74 %u2013 it%u2019s where %u2013
HB: What%u2019s that place used to be %u2013
TW: There%u2019s a Sub Station, but there%u2019s a little tract mall behind it %u2013 sort of a ghost town now.
HB: Where Kimbrell%u2019s furniture store %u2013
[everyone talking at once]
TW: Yeah, Maxway%u2019s used to be %u2013 the last memory I have of my grandfather selling something %u2013 he had to be up in his seventies %u2013 he was sitting up there in that parking lot, and he had cantaloupes, and he had a little bit of stuff on the back of his station wagon. I said %u201Cthere%u2019s Daddy Ray till the end.%u201D He was up in his seventies.
DW: Wow.
TW: And he was selling some stuff. He always %u2013 he was always %u2013 what you call it %u2013 a gatherer and storer. [laughter] Definitely an entrepreneur.
HB: He%u2019d go to the mountains and get apples %u2013 he%u2019d sell apples in the fall.
TW: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
DW: What about your mom, your grandma %u2013 what did she do?
TW: She was a little business woman %u2013 a working woman.
PC: She was the first black dietician for the school systems, I guess. She actually went to A&T to get a certificate in dietary %u2013 what do you call that, Helen?
HB: Yeah, she was dietary %u2013
PC: And you have that in there, don%u2019t you? You have a picture - it%u2019s in the scrapbook, isn%u2019t it? Her graduating class. And so she planned the meals for the Negro schools in Cleveland County, for all the schools. Because she cooked in all the schools too. And she always knew the kids who %u2013 that might be their only meal %u2013 and she always gave them something extra. And then the little boy going through the lunch line %u2013 I always got me a little something extra too. [laughter] I always got me two ( ) cookies!
DW: So you said she also cooked in the schools.
PC: Oh yes. Her and Miss Lidessa -- if you say anything about my mama%u2019s cooking, you got to put Miss Lidessa Brooks%u2019 name beside there.
TW: Miss Homsley.
PC: Cause they cooked %u2013 and Miss Homsley, Miss Alma Homsley.
TW: Alma Holmsley.
PC: Oh, everybody know them from cooking in the schools.
HB: This is her, right here, when she graduated from A & T.
DW: Oh, wow.
HB: This is her.
TW: The dietary certification for the State.
PC: You wanna look at that closer? You wanna look at that, Joy? Maybe you can write that down and get a copy of that or something %u2013 from the archives, or whatever. I think that was in the African-American %u2013
HB: It may have been.
DW: I%u2019ll use it Afro.
PC: Afro-American.
DW: Okay.
JS: So how did that work %u2013 was there -- how many Negro schools?
TW: Well, one the city.
PC: Cleveland, Hunter %u2013 [everybody talking at once]
HB: And the others was county schools.
TW: Douglas in North ().
PC: And Hunter -- Hunter School.
TW: Hunter School %u2013 that was a school in Flat Rock area.
PC: Right.
TW: Hunter School %u2013 which later turned into a special needs school.
PC: Right. Was that %u2013?
TW: It%u2019s where %u2013 you know where Patton Drive is? Joy, you know where the Administrative Office is?
JS: Uh-huh.
TW: You know, there%u2019s a school in back of it. They use it for storage. There%u2019s a school right in back %u2013 if you go and look, there%u2019s a school %u2013 that was a black school.
PC: Hunter School.
JS: Really?
TW: Hunter School.
JS: Hunter School.
PC: It was an elementary school.
HB: You went to Hunter %u2013 you and Warren both.
PC: When I and Warren went to Hunter, they had a program called %u2013 what was the name of that program I was in? I have no idea %u2013 ( ) something or other. Where they %u2013 you know, I went to Holly Oak Park. [laughter and everybody talking at once] I think it was the first gifted and talented program! [laughter] No, no, I think it was the first gifted and talented program. I think it was kind of a special test they were doing. Anyway, there was a school for a brief period of time out at Holly Oak Park.
HB: And that%u2019s where you went.
PC: That%u2019s where I went.
TW: Was that Miss Mack?
PC: Miss Mack %u2013
HB: Miss Mack was your teacher too?
PC: Miss Mack %u2013 was she your teacher?
HB: She was my first grade teacher.
PC: Get outta here! She was my first grade teacher. [laughter]
DW: This is all coming together!
PC: And Miss Lee.
HB: Miss Lee %u2013 she came after me. But Miss Mack was %u2013 she was the one taught me how to make circles %u2013
TW: Make circles?
HB: Yeah, that%u2019s how she started teaching me how to write, on the line. We started slow. [laughter]
TW: I remember, Peter, it was in that little rec center.
PC: That little rec center %u2013 you wouldn%u2019t think a school was in there. We had four classrooms in that little bitty center.
DW: You said now it%u2019s an exceptional school?
PC: No, it was %u2013
TW: Oh, we%u2019re talking about two different %u2013 she%u2019s thinking about Hunter.
DW: Oh.
TW: Hunter School was the school right in back of the administrative office on Patton Drive. That was part of Flat Rock community. And people in that community went to that school.
PC: What schoolteachers are alive now that were back then? Miss Kitty Hawk is dead, isn%u2019t she? Miss Kitty still alive?
TW: Yeah. Mr. Beam %u2013
HB: Miss Kitty Winston.
PC: Winston, yeah.
HB: Yeah, she%u2019s still living. And Mr. -- James Beam was the principal; he%u2019s still living.
TW: Mr. Beam was the principal; he%u2019s still living.
PC: Oh, you need to talk to James Beam. If you want to get a history of the schools, you need to talk to James Beam, and Miss Winston.
JS: Miss Bridges is a walking history.
PC: Oh, Miss Bridges is gonna tell you everything.
HB: Yeah, she does know from whence came we all. [laughs]
TW: And Mr. Raper.
HB: Cause I think Miss Mack taught Daddy.
TW: What? [noise in background]
PC: Three generations %u2013 no, two generations.
HB: I think Miss Mack taught Daddy.
DW: Wow.
PC: So, write a note here %u2013 if you talk to %u2013 and you gonna talk to Miss Ezra Bridges %u2013 I know you gonna talk to Sam Raper. Just put down Cabaniss School %u2013 ask them about that. Both of them can %u2013 because they probably know more about it that I do %u2013 well, for sure.
HB: We%u2019re just word of mouth %u2013 they were there. [laughter]
JS: Did your --?
TW: Tell them the story about %u2013
PC: Okay now, we were talking about schools. You wanna talk about -- what?
TW: The day care %u2013 the first black day care at Roberts Tabernacle CME.
PC: And y%u2019all wanna know the real story?
DW: No. [laughter and everybody talking at once]
HB: Miss Wesson wasn%u2019t the first school.
PC: No. My grandmother, Lavinia Rogers, was one of the first kindergarten instructors at the first African American kindergarten in Cleveland County. The kindergarten was started by her and a group of white ladies from Central United Methodist Church. Now [pauses] --
HB: It was during World War II.
PC: It was during World War II.
HB: And Mrs. [laughs], the lady talked was Gina Harrill. And she said these white women were interested in having somebody work for them, and that%u2019s why they started this kindergarten, so the women that were working for them would have a place for their children to stay while they were working for them. [several %u201Cohhhh%u2019s%u201D]
PC: So, as opposed to compassion, there might have been an ulterior motive to start a black kindergarten! [laughter] You know, we can%u2019t get nobody to come in here and work in our houses, cause they gonna take care of their children %u2013 well, we gotta find somewhere where they%u2019re children can go, so they can go work in the houses.
HB: Because that was during the war, and the men were %u2013 I guess they wanted to help the women %u2013 moneywise, too.
PC: Yeah, and it was a source of income, so it wasn%u2019t a bad thing. It actually %u2013 I went to %u2013 what was the name of the school? Just Miss Wesson%u2019s kindergarten %u2013
HB: No, it was Roberts Tabernacle %u2013
PC: It was called Roberts Tabernacle Kindergarten.
HB: It became Wesson%u2019s Kindergarten when she built her own place over there on ( ) Street %u2013 it was Wesson then.
TW: But I remember coming and going there in the summertime. It was in the basement of Roberts Tabernacle CME Church. And I remember %u2013 you know what they had for lunch? Tomato sandwiches. It was good.
HB: Yum %u2013 summertime and fresh tomatoes.
TW: And pinto beans. That was nutritious. [laughter] And that was good. Pinto beans and onions. And cornbread.
HB: Some of these writeups in the paper about the integration of schools. Did they have that in the archives of the %u2013
JS: Not actually at the Star. So, those are actually things I can get the date, and then get a copy at the library.
HB: Yeah, I guess the library would have it.
JS: Yeah, oh yeah.
TW: Are those all the articles during the integration?
HB: Yeah, that Daddy saved.
PC: I%u2019d like for you to take a moment and just go through that book. While we%u2019re on the schools, let%u2019s back date, and talk about the first Negro school. All right %u2013 which was Vance Cabaness %u2013 started the first African American school in Cleveland County. He donated the land and built a building. And the first schoolteacher stayed with his family. And the building still stands. And we can arrange a time to go up there if you want to take some pictures and maybe get some wood and make that part of the %u2013 cause you guys are working with Destination Cleveland County, right? And one of the ideas I had is %u2013 they may want to restore that school, and get some funding for that to %u2013 I know at one time, the mayor was interested. I think there was something called Roosevelt Schools %u2013 are you familiar with that?
DW: Oh yeah, uh-huh.
PC: Yeah, the Roosevelt Schools were the land grant schools for the African Americans. And there was some money out there to discover or locate those schools perhaps -- to maybe -- I think it would be an added amenity to the Museum, if as part of your touring here, you could take a brief ride up there. And that would be a draw for African Americans %u2013 hey, we got the Don Gibson %u2013 [laughter] and Earl Scruggs right down %u2013 because you wanna make this %u2013 there%u2019s a monetary motive for doing this, right? Because we wanna make this a vacation destination point, right? Well, then, I%u2019m pretty sure you wanna attract %u2013 have something that would draw a diverse group of people. Well, why not have an African American educational museum, and have it up there at that school, you know.
DW: Yeah, that%u2019d be a great idea.
PC: Especially if it came from you, ( ). [laughter] You can throw that out there. %u201CWhile I was talking to Pete %u2013 you know %u2013 did y%u2019all ever think about doing that?%u201D
DW: Um-hmm.
TW: What? I missed that.
PC: Locating that school and rebuilding it.
TW: The Cabaniss School?
PC: Uh-huh, and turning it into an educational %u2013
TW: Because of the historical %u2013
PC: Yeah, as a historical place, and as a museum. You know, they could put the history of African American educational system in America.
TW: That would be great.
PC: That might even get them national %u2013
DW: Actually, there is a %u2013 well, just as an aside %u2013 there%u2019s a national %u2013 the National Historic Registry %u2013 you can put the school on that, and they have a website, and maybe they could help restore it. Well, not fully restore the schools, but get some acknowledgement %u2013 I think some funding to do something.
HB: I saw that on one of the educational stations %u2013 some school in South Carolina that they were restoring. I saw that on one of the educational stations.
DW: Was Vance Cabaniss %u2013 is that your grandfather, great-grandfather?
PC: That was m grandfather %u2013 my great-grandfather. So there was Vance, Walter, Ray, Pete. [laughter]
HB: Four generations.
DW: Okay.
TW: You say you think this is Vance, his wife?
HB: I think that%u2019s Lizzie.
PC: His wife?
HB: Yeah, Vance%u2019s.
PC: Well, fantastic.
DW: Lizzie Cabaniss?
PC: This is old Grandma Lizzie. Oh, she look like a grandmamma too! Oh, oh, ooh! [everybody talking at once]
TW: She looks like she%u2019s Indian.
HB: Yeah, they say she had some Indian blood in her.
PC: Wonder () Hey, you think I%u2019m kidding? You look at this %u2013 you wanna straighten up now! [laughter]
TW: Oh, she wasn%u2019t playing.
PC: No, she wasn%u2019t playing, was she?
HB: No, they were serious back in them days.
JS: If she told to sit down, you %u2013 [everybody talking at once]
PC: She didn%u2019t have to tell you to sit down! But she does look like she%u2019s got some Indian in her.
TW: And that%u2019s Rayfield -- the other brother that couldn%u2019t make it today %u2013 that%u2019s him.
DW: The little one?
TW: That%u2019s Rayfield %u2013 the one that integrated Shelby High.
DW: Oh, Okay. Is that your daddy, granddaddy %u2013
TW: That%u2019s my grandfather. That%u2019s Pete%u2019s dad, and my mother%u2019s father. That%u2019s Ray Cabaniss. And that%u2019s the store. See, when they came back, they went to Connecticut and worked in the factory during World World II %u2013
HB: The defense plant.
TW: The defense plant %u2013 during the forties, and %u2013 for two years %u2013 and Mom and her sister were taken care of by her their maternal grandmother while they went up North. And after they came back, what he saved, he built the store. Right, Mom?
DW: Oh, okay.
HB: After a period of time, the store became his insurance office, right?
TW: Right.
DW: And with the %u2013 I don%u2019t know where to start with [laughs] questions about the schools %u2013 cause I don%u2019t know a whole lot. I did -- from just people telling me %u2013 that these were some of the black schools. Like seven black schools %u2013
TW: Green Bethel %u2013 that%u2019s where my dad went. Cleveland School %u2013 that%u2019s where Mom. Compact is in Kings Mountain. Lawndale School %u2013 was that the elementary?
PC: Douglas.
HB: Douglas.
TW: Douglas. Lawndale and Douglas the same?
HB: Well, I guess Lawndale may have been an elementary school, but Douglas was the high school.
TW: High school. Then Camp School was going south. Kings Mountain school?
HB: Davidson.
TW: Davidson, okay. Crest and Burns, were they around?
HB: No, no, no %u2013 Crest and Burns came when integration.
TW: Integration. But there was Maple Springs.
HB: That was an elementary school.
TW: That was Maple Springs Elementary.
HB: But the high schools weren%u2019t called Crest and Burns, they were called something else. They all had whole neighborhood schools like we did. Like Piedmont, and stuff like that, were the high white schools.
TW: So all the black schools -- what are they?
PC: They%u2019re missing one.
TW: Which one?
PC: Northside.
HB: No, that was integrated. That%u2019s integration.
PC: The teachers was integrated. Wasn%u2019t no white kids go to Northside. Not when I went, not the first year.
TW: All those kids over there in Roberts Dale, at the projects.
HB: Okay, I wasn%u2019t here then, so %u2013
PC: It probably wasn%u2019t meant to be a black school, but it ended up being a black school.
DW: Oh, Okay.
TW: What we call North Shelby, Joy %u2013 that used to be all %u2013 That%u2019s called Northside School. Yeah, all the kids that went there %u2013
PC: Now, Mr. Beam was the principal at Northside, too.
DW: Huh, okay.
PC: Cause I got a lot of spankings over there.
PC: No, that was third grade. Didn%u2019t get no spankings in high school. Spanking days were over. [laughter]
DW: Are any of these schools still around %u2013 the buildings still around?
PC: Most of %u2018em.
HB: Yeah, Cleveland School%u2019s still around.
PC: Hudson and Webber Street.
HB: Hudson and Webber Street, and Green Bethel is still up there in Boiling Springs.
PC: Douglas is still %u2013 it%u2019s Lawndale Baptist Church. [everybody talking at once]
HB: And so is Washington School; it%u2019s a church too.
PC: What about Camp?
TW: We forgot about ( ). Yeah, Camp School.
PC: Green Bethel is a church now, too.
HB: No, no. The school%u2019s still there.
PC: It%u2019s still there? Yes, multiple schools are still here.
HB: Camp was being used as a church for somebody, wasn%u2019t it?
TW: No, Camp for a while was the Life Enrichment Center.
HB: Okay. Isn%u2019t that where Lois and --? No, no, no. What%u2019s near the church that Lois and her husband pastor?
TW: Lois who?
HB: Covington.
TW: Covington? New Life.
HB: New Life. It%u2019s on the highway. It%u2019s on 18.
TW: Yeah, it%u2019s on 18. On Shoal Creek. But I%u2019m trying to think if there was another %u2013 now Hunter School was a black school. That was in the Flat Rock community %u2013 it was an elementary school.
DW: Was this %u2013 even after the schools were integrated?
TW: It was before.
DW: Before, Okay.
HB: What did it become after integration?
TW: It was Hunter School, but it became a special needs school.
PC: Now, you know %u2013 now, you have to date that integration as a time line there right. There%u2019s your documented, historical, written date of integration, and then there%u2019s %u201Cwhen did integration really happen?%u201D
JS: So, walk me through that -- walk us through that in Cleveland County.
PC: Well, in 1958, the Supreme Court ruled that %u201Cseparate but equal%u201D was not the law of the land, was no longer the law of the land. Was that called the Dred Scott decision? No --
TW: Brown --
PC: -- that was Brown vs. Board of Education.
TW: 1955.
PC: Was it %u201955?
TW: Um-hmm.
PC: Okay. And in 1963, the schools in Cleveland County were still segregated. And my father %u2013 I remember him saying that the white kids at Shelby High %u2013 each one of them had a microscope in their biology classes, and the black kids shared microscopes. And there was just %u2013 the schools were separate, but by no leap of the imagination were they equal. And he felt like the African American kids in Cleveland County deserved an equal education, and the only way to achieve that would be to integrate the schools. So he contacted the NAACP, and they assigned a lawyer to him, and he put in for a transfer. And the NAACP, from what I recall, they did everything very methodically. They really %u2013 even with Rosa Parks %u2013 they always tried to work within the law, and they%u2019d let you kinda make the mistake. So he put in for a transfer, and my brother was denied a transfer to the schools. One of the reasons he was denied a transfer was that they said he wore glasses. [laughter] Another reason is that well, socially it wouldn%u2019t work out for him, cause he would be the only black kid there %u2013 he%u2019d be better off in a black school. When they repeatedly denied his transfers, that%u2019s when he brought a lawsuit %u2013 with the help of attorneys from the NAACP. During that time our house was fire-bombed %u2013 a cross was burned in front of it. I distinctly remember the night it was fire-bombed. I was sitting in front of the TV with my legs crossed, watching the Ed Sullivan Show, as millions of households across America was doing. So from a society standpoint, we all had that in common. But from an African American community standpoint, my night was rudely disturbed when we got a phone call. And the lady was screaming on the phone and said %u201CMargaret, you better run, you better run! They throwed something in your yard!%u201D And I remember my momma grabbing me, and dragging me out the back porch, and down the back street to my aunt%u2019s house, because our house had been fire-bombed.
DW: Fire-bombed like a fire %u2013
PC: Like a fire-bomb %u2013 it%u2019s in the papers. Okay, now %u2013
HB: It%u2019s in one of these articles here.
PC: Yeah, there is an article in there about it.
TW: Cause during that time, my mom and dad %u2013 my dad was in the military %u2013 and they would send articles over to Japan to let Mom know what was going on. And Mom would keep %u2018em.
DW: How many siblings are there?
HB: Five.
DW: Five.
TW: Here they are, right here %u2013 well, minus Pete. [laughter]
PC: Well, actually what happened is that after Daddy had four kids, and he looked at them, he looked at his wife and said %u201CMargaret, I know we can do better than this!%u201D [laughter]
[everybody talking at once]
TW: Tell me your name again.
DW: Dwanna.
TW: Dwanna, I think it%u2019s so interesting %u2013 you have two generations here. You have Pete%u2019s perspective on integration and what%u2019s happening, but my mom was in it, and I think my mother has a really interesting perspective. I want Momma to share what you%u2019ve shared with me %u2013 I%u2019ll help you. Momma%u2019s kinda shy sometimes.
HB: What do you want me to say? [laughing]
TW: You remember you thought you didn%u2019t like anything, cause you felt like her education was superior because the teachers really put their heart %u2013
HB: They did. They were very caring, very, very caring. And I know I told her this once %u2013 I went to school %u2013 after I graduated from high school, I went to a school in Providence, Rhode Island.
TW: She went to Johnson and Wales.
[inteviewers %u201Cohhh%u201D]
HB: And that was my first school with white people. And I thought %u2013 we were always taught %u2013 oh, we always thought that they were smarter than we were, but when I went to school with them, I thought no, I was just as smart as they were.
TW: It was Johnson and Wales, it was in Rhode Island, the business school, and Momma pulled out her yearbook from up there.
DW: Wow. So you %u2013 what do you think helped to make it so much %u2013 what made the schools better from your perspective than %u2013
HB: Well, they had more equipment, but sometimes the classroom wasn%u2019t that different. You know, the teachers were %u2013 it depended on %u2013 some teachers were kinder to you than other teachers, and some teachers were %u2013 if you wanted it, you get it yourself. Some teachers were %u2013 in the black schools, those teachers made sure that you knew what they were trying to teach you. But sometimes, in the white schools, they didn%u2019t take that much time with you, I don%u2019t think. But, if you wanted to do what you wanted to do %u2013 if they saw that you were interested in learning, they would help you a little more. All ( ) are so interesting, I guess that%u2019s what you would say.
DW: Were you one of the only black students?
HB: I think there was another. Would you say %u2013
TW: I think there was about four.
HB: Four, I guess. I know %u2013
TW: That%u2019s Providence, Rhode Island in 1955. Momma was in %u2013 what was it %u2013 typing class?
HB: See, they just had the senior classes individual pictures, but they took pictures of classes %u2013 each class that you%u2019re in, so I was in one of the pictures of one of the typing classes.
DW: Did you ever experience any different treatment from other students?
HB: Huh-uh.
TW: Not in Rhode Island.
HB: Because the next semester, I wanted to change to office machines, and my teacher told me to stay in bookkeeping %u2013 I didn%u2019t especially like at that time %u2013 continue to do accounting would be more opportunity for you to have a better job if you just did office. That%u2019s when all this electronic machinery, and data processing %u2013 all that was coming in. And that%u2019s what I wanted to do -- I wanted to get into that. And she told me to stay with the accounting department. I thought that was kinda interesting, her %u2013
DW: And did you stay in touch with either the students growing up here, or with the students at this school %u2013 Johnson and %u2013
HB: No, I didn%u2019t really know any of the students, I just went to school there. You know, being black, you didn%u2019t make too much social contact with the students, so I just went to school there.
JS: Tell me about this cotillion %u2013 you had the first %u2013
HB: Oh, that was [laughs] my sixteenth birthday %u2013 it was just a party.
PC: Sweet sixteen. It was more than a party %u2013 it was the party! [laughter]
HB: No, that was just a party.
PC: You look at that picture and tell me if that looks like %u201Cjust a party.%u201D [laughter]
JS: That%u2019s more people than come to any party that I%u2019ve had.
TW: I mean, they%u2019re all dressed up %u2013 looks like a %u201Ccoming out.%u201D She was sixteen, and you%u2019re daddy put that on for you, didn%u2019t he? Did he have live entertainment?
HB: No, I think we just had regular records.
TW: Records? Forty-five records? They was spinning little %u2013 [laughter]
HB: Yeah, we all wore our best dresses to that.
DW: Yeah. Was this at the Armory?
HB: No, it was at the old Holly Oak Park, Holly Oak Park.
DW: Ohhh.
HB: And see, he had his first dances at the old Holly Oak Park %u2013 but no, he started at the Armory. And he had those big entertainers to come into town, he would have it at the Armory. Then when the local dance bands came, he%u2019d have it at Holly Oak Park.
TW: Didn%u2019t he have %u2013 the man that sang %u201CSitting on the Dock of the Bay?%u201D
PC: Otis Redding.
TW: Yeah, Otis Redding.
HB: He came to %u2013 those people would come to the Armory.
TW: That was special %u2013 people looked forward to stuff like that.
DW: People%u2019s shoes were shining %u2013 looking sharp! [laughter]
PC: They ain%u2019t wearing no baggies, are they?
[everybody agrees]
DW: So did this happen %u2013 did your other sister have %u2013
HB: Yeah, they gave her one too %u2013 when she turned sixteen. And then when %u2013 you all %u2013 they gave you and Tanzy a big party too.
PC: Yeah, we had a big party.
TW: 1973.
JS: Now, you said this was the first African American %u201CSweet Sixteen%u201D party.
PC: I don%u2019t know that to be true. [laughter] But you could say it.
TW: You could say %u201Clifestyle of the %u2013 %u201C that was just the %u2013
PC: It would probably be a good bet that it was.
DW: What is your %u2013?
PC: ( ) a dance for a young girl. A young, beautiful lady.
HB: Oh, okay. He knows how to put those words together [laughter].
PC: You could call it ( ).
HB: But the first %u2013
PC: Black ( ) [laughter]
HB: They did %u2013 now, the Shelby Women%u2019s Club gave a %u2013 they did a %u2013 what was it they did the next year, when I graduated from high school? They had a %u2013 what did they call it? A cotillion?
[several people say %u201Cdebutante ball%u201D]
HB: Debutante Ball? Debutante, debutantes.
TW: Shelby Negro Women%u2019s Club. That%u2019s the oldest black organization in the county, isn%u2019t it? Started in 19--, before 1920.
DW: And they would have an event like a debutante ball?
HB: Yeah, they had the first one %u2013 I graduated in 1953 %u2013 the first one they had was in 1954, so you can talk to some of the %u2013 Miss Kitty Winston probably could tell you %u2013 she%u2019s in the Shelby Negro Women%u2019s Club, and she would love to talk about that.
DW: Kitty Winston?
HB: Uh-hmm.
JS: I want to back up just a moment %u2013 when your father was able to actually go into an integrated school, did he talk about that?
PC: Oh, you have to call my brother %u2013 he can tell you some stories.
JS: Okay.
PC: You mean, when my brother was able to go? Or %u2013 when you saying?
JS: He %u2013
PC: Did he talk about %u2013 I don%u2019t recall %u2013 Helen?
HB: You wanting to know if he had any encounters with the school itself when he %u2013
JS: Yeah, what was his first day of school like %u2013 at an integrated school?
HB: You%u2019ll have to ask Ray, cause I %u2013
PC: Yeah. I do know one thing Rayfield told me that the first time he felt like a man is when he graduated, and Daddy looked at him, and said %u201CWe did it, didn%u2019t we.%u201D [laughter]
TW: Wow.
HB: He was the first boy %u2013 there were three or four girls went with him. [telephone rings]
TW: He was the first man.
HB: And his daddy was the one that instigated them getting there. He was the one that went through all this to get them there.
TW: And Severne Budd was one of those women.
PC: And the lady across the street %u2013 didn%u2019t she go? Miss Watson? Arnie Watson%u2019s daughter?
HB: Char %u2013
PC: Charleen?
HB: Charlene. I don%u2019t know.
PC: We%u2019ll have to call Rayfield, cause he was the one. And that%u2019s carrying a lot of weight. I mean, there%u2019s been stories about %u201Cthose girls that integrated Little Rock,%u201D or %u201Cthe kids that integrated Little Rock,%u201D right? And the effect %u2013 and some of it hadn%u2019t been so good.
DW: Yeah.
PC: And that%u2019s a lotta weight to carry on %u2013 it%u2019s like a whole race %u2013 both races %u2013 the whites are looking for you to fail, and the blacks are looking for you to succeed, praying that you don%u2019t fail.
DW: Did you %u2013 after your house was fire-bombed %u2013 how did you feel, living there after? Do you remember being afraid?
PC: I wasn%u2019t afraid because I had a lot of confidence in my father.
DW: Um-hmm.
PC: I remember that people was following %u2013 it looked like -- his every move. When he would get home, people would call the house, and they would say %u2013 they would ask for my father. I remember one night he answered the phone, and they asked him %u201Cwhat color casket do you want?%u201D And he said %u201Cthe same color your momma had.%u201D [laughter]
TW: He wasn%u2019t afraid! Man.
PC: Papa Strong used to sit on the porch with a gun, with a rifle, or shotgun, or
something. That was our next-door neighbor. So you have to talk to Miss Jenny Ree too.
DW: You%u2019re saying %u201CReeds?%u201D
HB: Jenny Ree %u2013 that%u2019s her middle name %u2013 Jenny Ree.
PC: ( ).
HB: Yeah, what%u2019s her name now, Bell? Jenny Ree Bell.
PC: She married?
HB: Yeah, she married a Bell. He died. But she married James Bell.
JS: I imagine -- from looking at your file %u2013 people also were looking very closely at you. What was it like being %u2013?
PC: I was five years old. I%u2019m %u201CLittle Petey.%u201D [laughter] That%u2019s what they still call me.
HB: I guess Warren could tell them.
PC: I don%u2019t, I don%u2019t %u2013 I remember when JFK was shot, and Momma %u2013 I was playing with ( ), and Momma said %u201Ccome inside, cause something bad might happen to you, cause the president%u2019s been shot.%u201D But I don%u2019t have any of those sociological viewpoints, that an older child might have. I didn%u2019t feel put down, or left out %u2013 I was a child, had the emotions of a child, and the concept of society that a five-year-old child would have, so -- no, in that regards -- I can%u2019t give any deep, profound insight into how it felt. I was scared, running down the back street, but as a child, as long as you have your parents with you, you probably aren%u2019t as afraid %u2013 as a thirteen-year-old child might be. Because your mind isn%u2019t developed to the point where you can judge, or even think about consequences.
HB: I guess Rayfield could tell them what %u2013
PC: Oh, Rayfield and Warren %u2013 they were in the house all through. There was three boys there %u2013 and Rayfield and Warren can tell you %u2013 express some of their feelings. And you may get some anger, some things of that nature.
DW: So by the time you both came along, what was it like to be in the schools? [phone rings and laughter]
PC: It was great for me.
DW: How so?
PC: That was in the %u2013 I was in high school in the seventies. So that was right after the riots, and that was %u2013 there is a historical term for that time period for blacks %u2013 help me out with it, Dwanna; what is it? It was like a brief period of enlightenment, right? I mean, you had the Black Power movement, you had the afros, you know -- %u201Csay it loud, I%u2019m black and I%u2019m proud,%u201D and it was pretty much like %u201Chey, I%u2019m still here, man.%u201D And that%u2019s when we were %u2013 I don%u2019t want to say %u201Cfull of ourselves%u201D %u2013 that%u2019s when black consciousness, you know, you were allowed to have such a thing as black consciousness, right? You could actually stand up and say %u201Cno!%u201D
DW: Um-hmm. So did you have %u2013 by that point, were schools fairly integrated, were the teachers integrated?
PC: Oh, we were integrated big time. You know, except for lunch period, which even now %u2013
JS: Yeah, you definitely still see %u201Cwhite,%u201D %u201Cblack%u201D %u2013
HB: Yeah, they still separate %u2013 we still separate ourselves %u2013 even now. [laughs]
PC: You know, it was during that period where they had parity elections. You remember that? Did you do any reading on that %u2013 parity elections?
DW: Um-hmm.
PC: Okay. Where if there was a black president, the vice president would be the %u2013 even if the black guy got the most votes, the next one would be a white guy; and if a white guy won, the black guy would be %u2013
TW: Was this at Shelby High?
PC: Um-hmm %u2013 they had parity elections.
HB: If the black guy was black, then the vice would be black, right?
PC: Um-hmm %u2013 would be white.
HB: One black, one white.
PC: One black, one white.
NIKAO WALLACE: That still goes on with the homecoming queens, and stuff.
HB: Is that the way it still is, Nikao?
NW: Well, the homecoming queens and stuff, they don%u2019t. I think up until a couple of years ago, Shelby %u2013 they were white/black every year.
DW: Is that where just the all black, white --?
NW: Yeah, and I think the only reason it stopped was there wasn%u2019t a white homecoming queen with a nominee, so %u2013
PC: That%u2019s when they stopped having homecoming queen?
NW: Well, no, no, they didn%u2019t stop having %u2018em, but they -- it was just like a black girl two years in a row. And, when I was going, it was always white/black.
HB: They don%u2019t vote on them? Don%u2019t they elect them?
NW: Yeah, they vote, but I mean you %u2013 nobody counted %u2013 the teachers, nobody counted them. I just thought it was weird. Maybe they did vote for %u2018em; maybe they did get the most. But I thought [laughter] it was just weird, you know %u2013 every other year, they%u2019d be a different %u2013
HB: Oh, one year she%u2019d be black; next year she%u2019d be white.
NW: Yeah.
HB: [laughs] So the teachers were doing the counting, huh? [laughter]
NW: Yeah.
TW: I remember Rayfield sharing with me %u2013 and it was in his yearbook %u2013 one person said %u201Cif it wasn%u2019t for you, Rayfield, I wouldn%u2019t have passed Geometry, Calculus,%u201D or something like that.
HB: White person?
TW: Um-hmm, it was a white person. Cause he went on to school to be a %u2013 what, chemist?
HB: Uh-huh.
TW: He went %u2013 Rayfield went to school %u2013 where did he %u2013 at Lane College, and he studied out in Lincoln, Nebraska, and then he got %u2013
HB: He changed to Lincoln.
TW: -- a degree in chemistry.
PC: Yeah, my brother, Rayfield, was very, very smart.
HB: He is.
PC: He%u2019s a very smart man.
DW: He lives in Charlotte?
PC: He lives in Charlotte. Sharp as a tack.
HB: You know he knows it.
PC: But I do encourage you %u2013 we%u2019ll make sure you get his phone number.
HB: He had planned to come up today, but something happened.
PC: Oh, he can tell it. You may be able to even to draw some things out of him, because you ask very probing questions, thoughtful ( ) questions.
TW: Unless you can put him on speaker phone %u2013 you don%u2019t have a speaker phone, do you?
HB: Huh-uh.
TW: Cause I have a speaker phone on my cell phone.
PC: It has a speaker phone with the phone upstairs. We could bring it down here, it has a pretty good ( ) to it. You know them little phones upstairs?
HB: There%u2019s one in the --
TW: I mean, does it detach from the %u2013
PC: No, no, no. The handheld %u2013 you put it on %u201Cspeaker%u201D and it%u2019s pretty good. Get the phone from the bedroom %u2013 Frank%u2019s bedroom upstairs, and we%u2019ll put it on %u201Cspeaker,%u201D if we wanna try to call him.
TW: Detach it from the wall?
PC: No, no, no, no, no, no, no %u2013 it%u2019s a portable handheld thing.
DW: So, we were talking %u2013 Joy and I were talking a little bit yesterday, about this %u201Cparity%u201D %u2013 and Joy came across this picture of Miss Black Cleveland County %u2013
JS: Yeah, um-hmm.
DW: -- has that always gone one?
PC: I don%u2019t know a thing about it. Helen?
HB: What is that?
PC: You know anything about Miss Black Cleveland County?
HB: Yeah, they did have that, but it was %u2013 they did have that a couple of years %u2013 Miss Black Cleveland County. But%u2026I don%u2019t remember anything about it, but do I remember that they did have it.
TW: This doesn%u2019t have a speaker. [she and Pete discuss the phone]
PC: I think it does have %u2013 I could be mistaken. Let me see %u2013
DW: Oh, I was gonna ask you, Nikao %u2013 what was school like for you?
NW: Oh, it was cool %u2013 I enjoyed it, when I went there. I think Shelby High is like %u2013 over sixty percent black now, or something like that, so the roles are pretty much reversed.
DW: What%u2019s the percentage of blacks? It%u2019s not that high for the county, is it?
NW: No, it%u2019s not for the county %u2013 I think there%u2019s more of the white students are in the county schools and stuff. I%u2019m pretty sure %u2013 I think there%u2019s more blacks than whites in Shelby High.
DW: Okay.
PC: Is this charged?
DW: Then that%u2019s probably why the %u2013 you were saying about Kings Mountain %u2013
PC: Oh, this isn%u2019t charged up. It wasn%u2019t in the cradle?
[two conversations at once]
TW: I have a speaker on my cell phone.
PC: Okay, a good one? This has a speaker too %u2013 it%u2019s pretty good.
HB: There%u2019s another one in the other room.
PC: While it%u2019s on my mind %u2013 the Negro Fair. Have you heard about that?
DW: Yes, yes. Had that on the list of questions. [laughs]
HB: That was nice %u2013 it was nice.
DW: Mrs. Barrow, I%u2019ll ask you, since you%u2019re here %u2013 I came across %u2013 I think this is you %u2013 did you work for First National Bank?
HB: Yeah, yeah, that%u2019s me. [laughs]
DW: Oh, Okay. What was it like working at the bank?
HB: It was different %u2013 I came here %u2013 when I came here, I had worked in a bank in Maryland.
TW: ( ) She was the second black who worked at First National Bank.
HB: Well, they were nice, but %u2013 as time grew, it became better.
SW: I know I can%u2019t walk into the bank %u2013 %u201Cnow you Helen%u2019s son %u2013 I mean grandson.%u201D Everybody %u2013 she left her mark.
DW: Yeah %u2013 how long did you work there?
HB: Over twenty-five years. ( ) One of your reporters came in, and people were very nice to %u2013 you know, the customers were very nice to me, and he came in and said %u201Cwe want to write a article about you as a teller, or something,%u201D and I told him no, I didn%u2019t want to stand out and make them uncomfortable %u2013 no, don%u2019t do that.
DW: Yeah.
HB: But he did, he came up when I was there and said he wanted to write a story about me as a teller for First National Bank %u2013 now, don%u2019t put that down, cause nobody knows that -- I didn%u2019t publicize it %u2013
TW: It%u2019s on %u201Crecord%u201D, though. [laughter]
DW: Well, we can take that out %u2013 [everybody talking at once]
HB: It%u2019s just something that I%u2019m saying, cause I never told them %u2013 he came to me twice and said he wanted to do a article about me. You have seen it in articles lately, that they do recognize tellers that, you know %u2013
TW: Was this for the Shelby Star?
HB: The Shelby Star %u2013 and this was years ago, that he came by.
TW: The seventies?
HB: Yeah, maybe the eighties %u2013 between eighties and nineties, something like that. He came in twice and asked me if he could write a story about me, as a teller. I told him no.
DW: Awww. [laughter]
HB: Because I didn%u2019t %u2013 I didn%u2019t want them to feel like %u2013 you know, I was thinking more of the other person than I was thinking of myself. But I thought it was nice of him to ask.
DW: Yeah %u2013 but I%u2019m sure you have great stories to tell. Stories to help remember what it was like.
TW: I remember %u2013 she was more than a teller up there %u2013 I mean she was social worker, advocate. A lot of people stopped banking there when she [laughs], because they knew Momma would take care. I think a little bit of that spilled over with everybody in the family, cause Momma wanted to make sure people%u2019s business was taken care of. Sort of a quiet %u2013 quiet missionary.
HB: You know, there were ( ) that would come in %u2013 they couldn%u2019t read, and they couldn%u2019t write, and you%u2019d take more time with them, and show them what they should do, and how to do this, and how to do that, and you%u2019d be a little more concerned about making sure that they took care of their money in the right way, and stuff like that.
DW: Did you -- that was the only bank for everybody in the county?
HB: No, there was another bank.
DW: Oh, Okay.
HB: The first two banks were First National and Union Trust.
DW: Okay.
HB: Then there was a company came in and bought Union Trust -- no, no, Northwestern bought them %u2013 Northwestern came in as Northwestern. But it was %u2013
TW: NCNB?
HB: No, no. It ended up being BB&T. That%u2019s what it is now, BB&T. But there were two or three other banks that bought them before it became BB&T. But First National has always %u2013 nobody has ever %u2013 they may have tried to buy First National, but nobody has %u2013 First National has been First National since it started. And it was 1874, something like that. And %u2013 now far as been retirement, retirement was very nice %u2013 they were very nice to me %u2013 after %u2013 after -- when you first go in, there%u2019s a cool %u2013
TW: Transition. [laughter]
HB: You don%u2019t feel exactly like you gonna %u2013 you know, you%u2019re there and they%u2019re there, but they finally came over, and they were extra nice.
DW: How long did that take for them to kind of -- get comfortable?
HB: Oh, I guess for me, [laughing] a couple of years %u2013 I don%u2019t know. You could feel it, but you don%u2019t feel it. You just go ahead and do what you have to do, and as they see how you progress and how you do handle yourself, that makes them become more confident in you. I guess it%u2019s something like these people now with Obama [laughs] %u2013
DW: Yeah.
HB: -- they%u2019re giving him a rough time %u2013 but I didn%u2019t have that kind of time, but you can compare yourself to %u2013 it%u2019s a change, it%u2019s a difference between %u2013 because sometimes now when they%u2019re saying something about him, it%u2019s not because they don%u2019t really like him, it%u2019s because he%u2019s not doing it like they think it should be done. So that%u2019s the way I feel about it.
DW: I%u2019m sure you opened the door for other people, so --
HB: Yeah.
DW: -- they appreciated it.
TW: There was quite a number. After a while, you were the only black there for how long, Momma?
HB: Oh, a long period of time.
DW: Only.
HB: Cause the first black, she had a little problem with the -- and they had to let her go. I said %u201Cthank you, thank you, thank you%u201D that I able to retire here. Sometime you look at it and you say sometime or another somebody%u2019s gonna try and find something to keep you from getting ( ). So I said %u2013 when it was time for me to go %u2013 thank you, I%u2019m retiring. Cause I was the first one to retire. I was glad %u2013
TW: First black to retire from First National?
HB: Um-hmm, uh-hmm, first black teller, first black teller.
DW: A lot of firsts! [laughs] Wow, wow. So I was talking with %u2013 this is in Charlotte -- but I was talking with a woman a few months ago, and she was the first black salesperson, and she was saying %u2013 which I had never really thought about, because by the time I came up in their stores and stuff, things were much different than now %u2013 they look probably probably forty or fifty years ago, but did they have like black maids work in different stores, or black butlers %u2013
TW: Janitors, or custodians?
DW: Yeah.
HB: Well, the custodians were men, they didn%u2019t have any women %u2013 they were all men.
DW: Oh. Oh. So if you were a maid, you would just work in someone%u2019s house?
HB: Um-hmm. But the First National never had a woman do maid work. They always had men to do that %u2013 black men.
DW: Did you feel that %u2013 were there any tensions between the janitors and you being the first black teller, and just the positions?
HB: Huh-uh. No, because %u2013 I guess because my grandpa was a %u2013 Papa Walt worked at the bank, too. And he was their bank chauffer. Now I don%u2019t know whether %u2013 I don%u2019t think Papa did any cleaning, I don%u2019t think he did any cleaning, but they had a black crew to do the cleaning. But my grandfather worked for the First National Bank, too.
DW: A chauffer?
HB: Yeah, he worked there %u2013 I don%u2019t know what he did! [laughter]
DW: It is different.
PC: And he took the money from Lawndale to Shelby.
DW: Oh, Okay.
HB: Yeah, he was the courier, he was the courier.
PC: Courier, yeah.
HB: He was also %u2013 the courier %u2013 but he was also %u2013 if old lady Blanton had somewhere to go, he would %u2013 you know -- he was a chauffer, too.
DW: Wow.
PC: ( )
DW: That%u2019s a big job, that they trusted him with the money [laughs].
PC: Well, now, talking about a chauffer, wasn%u2019t %u2013 now I could be wrong, but wasn%u2019t A. L., Uncle A. L., old Mrs. ( ) chauffer?
HB: No, he was chauffer for ( ) Hoey.
PC: Oh, Governor Hoey?
HB: Um-hmm.
DW: Huh.
TW: Who %u2013 A. L. Bailey?
PC: Um-hmm.
HB: Yeah, he worked at Hoeys.
TW: Huh.
PC: So, there%u2019s two governors from Cleveland County.
HB: Yeah.
PC: Okay. You know, so there%u2019s two governors from Cleveland County.
HB: Governor Hoey, and Governor Max Gardner.
DW: So, what would be %u2013 I do wanna go back to the schools a little bit, if that%u2019s okay %u2013 but, what were good jobs for black people in the county %u2013 then or even now %u2013 what would be considered good jobs?
HB: Janitors and maids. [laughs]
TW: Well, you would find school teachers.
HB: Yeah, school teachers would be the number one thing that %u2013 cause that was one thing I said when I graduated from high school, I was not gonna be a school teacher. [laughter]
TW: They just primed you for that -- schoolteachers and %u2013
HB: Cause my girl friend was a school teacher %u2013 she went to school to be a school teacher.
TW: Mrs. Beam?
HB: Um-hmm.
TW: And your sister.
HB: Um-hmm, my sister%u2019s a school teacher. And I was determined I was not gonna be a school teacher. [laughter]
DW: Did you know what you wanted to do?
HB: Oh, well what I started %u2013 I started out as %u2013 I wanted to be a social worker. I wanted to be a social worker. But I ended up working in accounting, in bookkeeping.
DW: That sounds like what your daughter was saying, you got a little bit of the social worker [laughs] out %u2013
HB: Well, I grew up wanting to be one of those missionaries who go into foreign countries. You know how little girls have all these kinda dreams %u2013 they wanna go out and be a missionary and do things, so I really did want to be a missionary. But, black folks didn%u2019t go to foreign countries to be a missionary, but I did, I really wanted to be a missionary [laughs].
DW: Wow.
HB: So I%u2019m still doing, touching on some of the stuff there. Come to find out, it%u2019s better to do things locally than to want to go way out somewhere.
DW: Yeah. Take care of home first? [laughs]
HB: Yeah, I know but %u2013 as I say -- you know, when you%u2019re young, you want to go to foreign places and do things %u2013 I wanted to be a missionary in Africa or something like that. [laughs]
TW: Well, you married a military man.
HB: [laughs] Oh, yeah I did. But that was far from being a missionary! [laughter]
TW: Home missions!
HB: That was quite the opposite of being a missionary %u2013 being a military wife, I tell you that!
TW: Yeah, home missionary.
HB: They would send %u2013 you%u2019d be %u2013 we did travel with him, so we were in Japan, and he would go %u2013 they%u2019d take us to Japan, then they%u2019d send him to %u2013
TW: India.
HB: India, or somewhere %u2013 I%u2019d say %u201Cnow he brought us over here, and here we sit here in the house.%u201D [laughter] But that%u2019s the case %u2013 we did %u2013 we went everywhere. We traveled a lot with him. When he retired, we came back to Shelby. We stayed in Washington, D. C. about ten years %u2013 eight or ten years, didn%u2019t we?
TW: A good eight years.
HB: Of course, he was with the President. He was appointed to one of the President%u2019s sections there.
JS: So you traveled with him with the military, then came back and worked at First National, and retired at First National?
HB: Um-hmm.
DW: So was going in the military a option for a black man?
HB: Yeah, um-hmm. Well, see %u2013 when he went in, first he was drafted %u2013 that%u2019s when they had the draft %u2013 he was drafted. And when he came out, he reenlisted and volunteered for the Air Force. Cause he said he wanted to go into the %u2013 I was a military %u2013 Air Force military wife the whole time, cause when we got married, he was in the Air Force.
JS: Was that like the best option for black men at that time? Military service?
HB: He thought so. Course that was in the fifties %u2013 I got married in the fifties. So he thought that was better %u2013 he%u2019d have better chances of progressing. Cause he did %u2013 when he got out of the service, he went to Washington, D. C., and he worked at the Pentagon for a period of time, and he decided he didn%u2019t like Washington, D. C. He wanted to go back into the Air Force. That%u2019s what we %u2013 that%u2019s what us did! [laughter] And when he came back here, he retired %u2013 he worked at PP&G till he retired from PP&G. So now he%u2019s a wood carver %u2013 see these flowers here %u2013 that%u2019s what he does now.
DW: Oh. Wow, that%u2019s nice.
TW: ( ) did a piece on him.
JS: Okay.
HB: The Star has done a write-up on him. He does %u2013 mostly, I guess %u2013 his walking canes.
JS: Okay. Yeah.
DW: What%u2019s PP&G?
TW: Pittsburgh Plate and Glass.
DW: Oh, Okay.
TW: PPG.
HB: What did I say? PP&G. [laughs]
TW: Pittsburgh Plate and Glass. They wind fiberglass.
DW: Are any blacks in like sales positions in the stores downtown?
TW: Yes. My aunt, Corine. She%u2019s one of the first black retailers I know of. She worked for a Jewish family %u2013 Cohen%u2019s?
PC: Cohen%u2019s.
TW: C-O-H-E-N. Uptown.
PC: Yeah, you have to put her down, too. She%u2019s 94, 92?
HB: She%u2019s 92.
PC: 92.
TW: Corine Cabaniss.
HB: She turned 92 in May, cause she and Daddy were the same age.
TW: And she worked for the Cohen%u2019s until they closed the store, and she%u2019s still working at Goodwill.
DW: Um-hmm. Wow.
[someone mumbles]
DW: Whew! I%u2019ll have to move here, cause a lot of people are in their nineties, or in the hundreds! [laughter] I%u2019ll bottle some of that up and take it with me!
TW: And she still drives!
HB: Yeah, she%u2019s still driving. Yeah, she%u2019s doing very well.
TW: And working %u2013 works some at Goodwill.
HB: And Miss Bridges is %u2013 she%u2019ll be 103 this month. July 19th. She%u2019s 103. Well, she has a memory like %u2013 ohhh.
DW: Oh my goodness.
TW: She%u2019s at Cleveland Pines nursing home.
HB: I think they%u2019ve interviewed her a couple of times over there.
DW: Um-hmm.
HB: And they%u2019ll probably do another interview when her birthday comes.
DW: That%u2019s coming right up.
HB: The 19th. What%u2019s today %u2013 the 14th?
TW: This weekend %u2013 Saturday.
HB: Yeah, they%u2019ll be over there interviewing her.
TW: Yeah, Corine Ca %u2013 I was thinking about that %u2013 I didn%u2019t see many black people in sales positions uptown. She was %u2013
HB: Yeah, because she worked for them %u2013 she started working for them as their maid, and then they just moved her, when they moved out of Shelby, they just put her in the store %u2013 gave her a job in the store. She worked for them for years.
TW: About what %u2013 fifty? Long time.
HB: Yeah, she still keeps in touch with them.
TW: She%u2019s been in retail over sixty years.
HB: Um-hmm. She%u2019s been there a long time.
DW: So, now %u2013 for blacks and jobs %u2013 have you seen that it changed a lot, in terms of what%u2019s available %u2013 over the past --?
HB: Yeah, seems like there%u2019s %u2013
TW: Primary jobs -- when I was coming up, everybody graduated and went to work in the mill, wasn%u2019t it, Pete, because this was a textile area. That was very %u2013 what%u2019s the word I%u2019m trying to think of?
DW: Industrial?
TW: Yeah %u2013 it was well %u2013 I mean, people didn%u2019t think a mill would ever close. I don%u2019t think they even conceived of that happening. They didn%u2019t conceive back in the fifties, sixties, seventies, that machines would take over manual power. But that was the people%u2019s attitude %u2013 I would think, at least half. The mentality %u2013 if they went to school, they went to either be nurses or teachers. Or it they wanted to go, they knew they had a job in the mill. And they worked %u2013 a lot of mill houses around here %u2013 this is a mill town.
DW: Were there a lot of %u2013 well, it sounds like your grandfather, and your father, and your great-grandfather were like entrepreneurs. Were there a lot of black entrepreneurs around? [several murmur %u201Chuh-uh%u201D] I guess maybe just like funeral businesses %u2013
TW: The Dockerys.
PC: Well, there was %u2013 yes, there were. Porter Freeman. That was whole little black-owned city over there. He had a cleaners, right? He had a restaurant.
HB: Yeah.
TW: Where?
HB: Up on Carolina Avenue.
PC: Yeah, up on Carolina Avenue. He had a cleaners, a restaurant, a cab stand.
[end of Disc 1]
HB: Barber shop. Beauty shop.
PC: A barber shop, a beauty shop. So, yeah, you have to do Carolina Avenue, and all the things that went on there. And you have to talk to Carl Dockery. Did somebody give you his name?
DW: Ummm.
TW: He%u2019s a funeral home %u2013 Enloe.
PC: You know him, don%u2019t you Miss Scott?
JS: Um-hmm.
PC: Oh, please talk to Carl.
TW: Paul Dockery and Enloe.
PC: Carl, and Paul, and I don%u2019t know %u2013 which Enloe is still alive? I know one of %u2018em.
TW: Kevin is the only living, and his mother.
PC: Is neither one of his uncles alive?
HB: No, no. He only had his daddy, was the only man.
PC: Is his mother still alive?
PC: Yeah. But she married into the Enloe family. But the Enloe was his daddy, and he had two sisters. And the sister %u2013 she still lives here. Her name%u2019s Elsie %u2013 Elsie Foster. She lives in the home up there on Buffalo Street.
PC: And one of the things we want you %u2013 you probably don%u2019t want to be remiss in is the first black doctor in Cleveland County.
HB: Dr. Ezell. The one that delivered me. He%u2019s the black doctor delivered me.
TW: He came to the house?
HB: Um-hmm.
TW: Wow. Dr. Ezell? I didn%u2019t know that. [pause]
HB: Then there was a Dr. Smith.
PC: Do you have a picture of Dr. Ezell?
DW: Oh I don%u2019t know %u2013 this is %u2013 um -- this picture. [laughs]
JS: I found that in a reporter%u2019s files, but it didn%u2019t have the name.
TW: In Shelby?
HB: We never had a black dentist, have we? We never had a black dentist.
PC: You know there was a black doctor who was killed, in Shelby.
HB: Dr. Singleton.
JS: Dr. Singleton?
DW: And he was killed?
HB: He died in an explosion.
PC: Murdered.
HB: We don%u2019t know he was murdered.
PC: I know.
HB: Oh, you do know? I%u2019ve ( )
TW: I remember people -- I remember hearing that.
PC: Ask Carl Dockery about that.
JS: Okay.
TW: His office was on Carolina Avenue.
PC: I don%u2019t know.
[several people talking at once]
JS: But -- just over the years %u2013 I%u2019d go to somebody%u2019s house and interview them for this one thing, and they%u2019d say %u201Cwell, you know, you used to have somebody that was killed back in the day, and da-da-da-da-da.%u201D And it was a black doctor, and some people say there was an explosion, an accident, but he was killed, not %u2013 but who would %u2013 where was it -- ?
HB: Well, did you not %u2013 where was that -- excuse me %u2013 some time back that the FBI was investigating the death of him --
JS: Yes, that%u2019s what it %u2013 yeah.
HB: -- the death of Dr. Singleton?
JS: Yes.
HB: Fifty years %u2013 something about it had become an investigation of an FBI file, that they were investigating his death. It was in the paper. [several murmuring] That they were investigating %u2013 it was 50 years ago.
TW: And Dr. Edwards was after that, wasn%u2019t he?
HB: He was here when Frankie was born.
TW: In the sixties.
HB: He was my doctor when Frankie was born %u2013 Dr. Edwards.
TW: Where%u2019d he come from?
HB: I don%u2019t know. He was %u2013 he came from in the mountains. But his wife was a teacher; she taught English.
DW: So %u2013 when childbirth happened in the house %u2013
HB: Yeah, I was born in the house %u2013 [laughs] I don%u2019t know what happened, but I was born at home. [laughter]
TW: What about Ann?
HB: Yeah, I guess she was born at home, too.
DW: When did %u2013 I guess at some point, blacks went to the hospital %u2013 around what time?
HB: Rayfield was born in the hospital. And Warren, [laughs] and Pete.
TW: All over here at Cleveland?
HB: Uh-huh.
TW: Probably Cleveland Memorial Hospital%u2019s %u201Cblack unit.%u201D
DW: Ohhh. [laughter]
HB: Now, Rayfield and Warren were born in the black %u2013 you know, it was segregated %u2013 they had the hospital for the blacks, but it was all in the same building. The blacks were in one area, and the whites were in another area.
TW: Oh, so Pete wasn%u2019t a part of that?
HB: No, no -- he was born %u2013 it was integrated then. Just Rayfield and Warren.
[pause]
JS: So tell us about the Negro fair.
HB: [laughs] I just know I went!
TW: Oh, Momma!
HB: It was nice. Cause school would have certain days, like they do now, but on Friday%u2019s, they%u2019d have a football game, and then they%u2019d %u2013 I thoroughly remember very well the horse races %u2013 they had the charter horses, and they don%u2019t do that any %u2013 but I thoroughly enjoyed it. I guess that%u2019s when I learned how to thoroughly enjoy horses, cause I love horses. I don%u2019t ride %u2018em, but I love to watch %u2018em. [laughs] And now, if I was coming up again, I would own a horse, cause I always wanted %u2013 I carried him when he was two or three years old, to learn how to ride horses. Yeah, I loved horses.
TW: Didn%u2019t they have plays? I remember them talking about plays.
HB: Yeah, well %u2013 there was a group called the %u2013 no, they were called %u2013 there was a group that my aunt belonged to, and they have plays at the fairground. It was nice %u2013 we looked forward to that too. [laughs] And then when all the other integrations came in, then the fair became integrated too. You know, as things moved about from the schools, to this, to that, then the fair became integrated also.
JS: You remember the first year of integration of the fair?
HB: No, as I say, I was traveling with Frank in the military during that period of the sixties, when everything became integrated. So %u2013
TW: Do you remember, Pete?
PC: No. I just %u2013 I remember the disappointment of not having two fairs to go to. [laughter] Cause there was %u201Cthe%u201D fair, then there was the Negro fair. [children playing in background]
DW: Oh, so you could go to the %u2013 %u201Cthe%u201D fair?
HB: Yeah, you could go %u2013 what was it %u2013 the opening day, but you couldn%u2019t go when the %u2013
JS: Oh, Okay.
HB: You know, like you have %u2013 what is it now, they have free day, the first day?
STUART WALLACE: Suicide. [laughter]
HB: But once it started, I don%u2019t think you could go to it until it was integrated. I know we didn%u2019t go. We went to the black fair. [laughs]
TW: And it%u2019s always been out where it is now.
HB: Um-hmm.
TW: It%u2019s always been there.
HB: Mr. %u2013 the Fosters, and the Enloes %u2013 they were all in charge of that too. And the Borderes. It was on a smaller %u2013 it was a nice scale, but it was on a smaller scale, cause there was a different group that would come in for the black fair %u2013 you know, it%u2019d be all black, and you%u2019d have [laughing] %u2013 they don%u2019t have a lot of them side shows where all them %u2013 what they called the%u201Chootchy-kootchy%u201D girls. [laughter] That was fun! [everybody talking at once] They would have those shows, so the women would %u2013 they called it the %u201Chootchy-kootchy%u201D show.
SW: Where?
NW: Stuart heard %u201Chootchy-kootchy%u201D show.
DW: Guess they were pretty popular! [laughter]
HB: Yeah, it was!
PC: Stuart said %u201Cwhere?%u201D
SW: I %u2013 I %u2013 I just %u2013
PC: I-I-I-I --
SW: I came in here cause he was trying to beat me up.
CHILD: Yeah, because he beat me up too! [somebody shushes]
PC: Yeah, she%u2019s making a recording of us.
DW: Do you remember the food?
HB: Oh, the food was good. Cause the black ( ). It was real good. [train blows whistle]
[laughter and everybody talking at once]
PC: Now, Daddy have something to do with that?
HB: Well, he had a %u2013 no, he had a stand out there a couple of years, where you could go in and dance.
PC: Ohhh.
TW: Oh, he had dances?
HB: Yeah, he had a dance floor.
TW: He would have some performers come and play?
HB: I guess mostly it was music %u2013
TW: Records?
HB: Yeah, mostly. But he did -- he had a dance stand out there.
TW: Like a juke box? [somebody coughs]
HB: Yeah. He was %u2013 where there was a will, there was a way, or something. [laughs]
PC: Where there was money, there was Ray.
HB: Yeah. [laughter]
TW: He always had a motto %u2013 %u201Cthis is a Ray Cabaniss presentation, so it%u2019s got to be good.%u201D That was his brand. That was all his broadcasts on the radio, when he had an upcoming event.
HB: He would say it was %u201Ca Ray Cabaniss Production %u2013 it%u2019s gotta be good.%u201D
TW: Yeah, %u201Cthis is a Ray Cabaniss Production, so it%u2019s got to be good.%u201D
HB: Yeah, they still talk about him %u2013 every once in a while, somebody will say %u201Cwe sure do miss your daddy.%u201D Just like they tell me up at the bank %u2013 I say been gone this long, that%u2019s just a saying %u2013 people say %u201Cwe sure do miss you.%u201D
PC: You probably want to talk to Eddie Bridges -- you know Eddie. I think he was the first black DJ. Or broadcaster.
JS: Does he have a radio station?
PC: Has a radio station in South Carolina.
HB: Yeah, he has a station there in Gaffney.
PC: -- in Gaffney.
HB: He owns it now, doesn%u2019t he?
PC: Um-hmm. But I think he was the first black radio announcer at WOHS.
HB: He was in Shelby?
PC: Um-hmm.
DW: So what was music like %u2013 well, this project is looking %u2013 well, not this project, but the bigger project is kinda looking at Earl Scruggs, and Don Gibson, and country music and bluegrass seems to be really popular %u2013
HB: But that%u2019s their music. Our music was B. B. King, and%u2026Wilson%u2026
DW: Oh %u2013 Jackie Wilson?
HB: Jackie Wilson, and %u2013
PC: What you know about Jackie Wilson?
HB: [laughter] %u2013 and the Drifters, and the Coasters, you know %u2013 that group %u2013 that was us.
DW: Take off the %u201Cgrass%u201D part! [laughter]
TW: See, now they call it %u201Cbeach music.%u201D But it%u2019s really %u2013 it was always %u2013 you know --
HB: It was the period before %u201Csoul.%u201D When did %u201Csoul%u201D start %u2013 in the sixties? Soul %u2013 sixties?
TW: Um-hmm.
HB: It was the period before %u201Csoul.%u201D It was nice music. They didn%u2019t play it for us here in Cleveland County; we didn%u2019t have %u2013 we%u2019d listen to that station in Nashville, Tennessee %u2013 who was that?
TW: Randy.
PC: Randy. Oh, late at night!
HB: Yeah, yeah. They played all that kind of music over at Randy, but here, the radio stations did not play that music.
PC: Really?
DW: Hmmm.
TW: Or you would have to go to Carolina Avenue %u2013 they%u2019d have the music in their jukebox.
HB: In the jukeboxes. But if you listened to the radio, it would be Lester Flatt, Earl Scruggs, or something like that. Maybe Bing Crosby, or something. Perry Como, the big bands.
PC: Now, I will give the Earl Scruggs, and the Don Gibson committees %u2013 I serve on both of those committees %u2013 they%u2019re not trying to whitewash the history. And they are doing everything they can to open up the museum to make sure that they do capture %u2013 even in the musical part of it. You know, Harold Williams is on the Board. You know Harold.
JS: Yeah.
PC: And he%u2019s representing the music part. So, Brownie is just %u2013 God, isn%u2019t she just wonderful? And I don%u2019t know if you had a chance to meet Marta before she left.
DW: No.
TW: Marta.
PC: But you know Marta, Marta Holder.
HB: Yes. Is she from the museum?
PC: Um-hmm.
HB: She%u2019s from the Smithsonian?
PC: No, no, no, no %u2013 that%u2019s Cissy. Cissy%u2019s the one that%u2019s coming up. But you know Brownie.
HB: Oh yes, I know Brownie very well.
TW: What about gospel music? Wasn%u2019t that a big %u2013?
HB: Yeah, they played it on %u2013 there was gospel music ( ), but listened to the Blackwood Brothers, or something like that on the radios, but gospel music %u2013 now, Papa Walt, on Sunday mornings, one of the radio stations would bring black groups on Sunday morning. They would have %u2013 Papa and his group used to sing on the radio on Sunday morning.
TW: Local?
HB: Um-hmm.
TW: Gospel.
HB: Um-hmm.
TW: What was it %u2013 quartet?
HB: Quartet singing.
TW: Quartet.
HB: Many quartet groups, they would give them spots on Sunday morning on the local radio station %u2013 WOHS.
TW: And then %u2013 like I said %u2013 Daddy Ray would bring entertainment here. Stars %u2013 gospel and sec %u2013 you know.
HB: Both sides.
TW: Rhythm and blues and gospel.
JS: Who was the first act that he brought, do you remember? Do you remember, Pete?
PC: Oh, no. The first --
TW: When did he start doing it? Was it before the sixties?
PC: It was way before I was born.
TW: Oh.
HB: Yeah, it was. [laughs] Oh, cause he%u2019s %u2013
TW: You remember the first act, Momma?
HB: There was a group out of Charlotte called %u201CThe Golden Bells,%u201D or something.
TW: Gospel?
HB: Quartet.
PC: Some of the older black people in town %u2013 Harold Williams could tell you, cause Harold used to play for Daddy. [somebody clears throat]
HB: He wouldn%u2019t remember that.
PC: I don%u2019t know.
TW: Did he have the Five Blind Boys?
HB: Yeah, but that was way after %u2013
PC: I mean, the biggest names that was in the country, he was able to bring here, which I think is %u2013
TW: Mighty Clouds of Joy.
HB: What%u2019s her name %u2013 Caesar? Shirley Caesar. Yeah, she%u2019s been here.
PC: Swanee Quintet, The Five Blind Boys %u2013
HB: The Williams Brothers %u2013
PC: The Soul Stirrers, Gospel Jubilee %u2013
HB: The Williams Brothers?
PC: The Williams Brothers.
JS: Swanee Quintet? [laughter]
HB: Oh yes, of course %u2013 the Swanees.
JS: How did he get into promoting?
HB: There was some fella in Charlotte that was doing promoting in Charlotte, and he would call Daddy and ask him if he wanted to have them. That would be an extra program for him, if they%u2019d come over to Shelby after they did a program in Charlotte. Then, after he got to be known by all the groups, he could call the groups himself, and instigate to tell him when they wanted to come. But I think it was some group out of Charlotte, some promoter out of Charlotte.
PC: J. T. Neal.
HB: Yeah, Neal, that%u2019s right. But now, these other singers, these -- what is it %u2013 the groups like Kool and the Gang, and Bo Diddley, and stuff %u2013 he did that himself. I don%u2019t know who he went through, but he did that on his own.
TW: Joe Tex?
HB: I want to say Brooks Benton was here, too %u2013 I%u2019m not gonna say he was, but I want to say %u2013
TW: I know Otis Redding.
PC: Aretha Franklin%u2019s daddy.
HB: Yeah%u2026
PC: Cleveland.
HB: No, that was James Cleveland.
PC: Oh yeah, James Cleveland. Did he come?
HB: No.
PC: Okay.
HB: Oh, Aretha Franklin%u2019s daddy came.
PC: Uh-huh. That%u2019s when Aretha came %u2013 she was singing with her daddy.
DW: Did most of these concerts happen on the weekend, or %u2013?
HB: No [laughs] %u2013 he%u2019d get them whenever they could come %u2013 it%u2019d probably be like on a Friday, not like on a Monday or Tuesday, something like that, but it would be %u2013
DW: Not a ( )?
HB: But they never was on a Sunday. And he%u2019d have holiday dances like Christmas, or Easter -- he%u2019d do that.
TW: And every year, at Holly Oak Park --everybody came from all over %u2013 they used to have a Fourth of July %u2013 what was that, Pete?
PC: It was like a little carnival. Oh, you have to ask people about the Fourth of July, out at Holly Oak Park. And Miss Bridges can tell you about this %u2013 it was Miss Bridges, Mr. Palmer, and Daddy, and some others %u2013 there was a lot of progressive blacks in Cleveland County. By no means was my father the only one. He was surrounded by a lot of peers as well as mentors. And they actually built the first %u2013 you know what %u2013 the first park %u2013 the first concept of a city park was Holly Oak Park. And when the blacks went to the City, and said %u201Cwe want a park,%u201D they said %u201Chey, that%u2019s a great idea %u2013 we want one too!%u201D And they build the Shelby City Park, but [someone coughs] then they also built the Holly Oak Park, which I think for miles around was the only black park with a swimming pool, and a picnic area, and a community center, and lights where people could go and congregate en masse and socialize and feel safe, and comfortable, and wanted. And for miles %u2013 from Hickory, to Asheville %u2013 ( ) [someone coughs] I don%u2019t even know about, as far as Charlotte %u2013
HB: High Point %u2013 I know some people from High Point came here.
PC: You need to ask Miss Bridges %u2013 I think her name is out there on the cornerstone.
HB: Like we said, she%u2019s a historian.
DW: It seems in North Carolina, like the Parks and Recreation %u2013 they had a lot of activities for blacks and whites %u2013 was it the same with Holly Oak Park, too -- were they sponsored events, or is was kind of like your father would sponsor the event?
PC: I don%u2019t know about %u2013
TW: Wouldn%u2019t they have softball games? It was organized softball teams.
PC: There was excellent [coughing continues] there was a lot of black people in Cleveland County that took interest in the community. There was a lot of black culture. There were black leagues, baseball leagues, basketball leagues %u2013 oh, you know what %u2013 the basketball league, the Negro basketball league out in Cleveland County, won the state championship. Which was my father and his uncle.
HB: That was from the school, not the league.
PC: Was that the school?
HB: That was from the school.
PC: Yeah, they were state champions %u2013 1948.
HB: No %u2013 %u201935, %u201936. [coughs]
[everyone talking at once]
HB: But that was the high school %u2013 that was Cleveland School; that was Cleveland School.
PC: That was Cleveland School?
TW: Want some club soda?
HB: Yeah, that%u2019d be good.
SW: Club soda?
HB: They went to %u2013 I did have a picture of that. They probably have it at Shelby Daily Star.
PC: Uncle ( ) %u2013 yeah, there%u2019s pictures of it. They were championship %u2013 the champions of the state.
TW: I think I saw his picture, one of your pictures.
HB: Daddy and Paul was on that. [several talk at once] Reverend Raper, now he could tell you all about %u2013 he could tell you a whole lot about that.
PC: Was he on the basketball team?
HB: Yeah, he was %u2013
TW: I saw them in your pictures, I thought. [pause, looking at pictures]
HB: All them pictures --
JS: -- picture of a football team --
TW: Football team?
JS: -- in there, from Cleveland School.
[child interrupts]
DW: Could we go back just a little bit, like to the neighborhoods %u2013 so, there were Flat Rock community, but then there was Creekside, and Blackbottom, and Jail Alley, too. And those were the black communities %u2013
PC: Oh no, that wasn%u2019t the only black communities. There was The Knot %u2013
HB: Freeman.
PC: -- Freeman %u2013 what was that little place called behind Freeman? Over there %u2013 I think that might have been %u2013 I don%u2019t know what that%u2019s called.
HB: You talking about off of Buffalo Street?
PC: Yeah %u2013 no %u2013
HB: There was Reid%u2019s Place.
PC: Reid%u2019s Place %u2013 yeah, I remember about Reid%u2019s Place. [children playing]
HB: And there was a place over there off of Buffalo Street, behind %u2013
PC: Where did the ( ) used to live, on that dirt road over there, back behind Carolina Avenue bridge.
HB: Jail%u2019s Alley -- no, it was called Dog%u2019s Alley, Dog%u2019s Alley.
PC: Dog%u2019s Alley %u2013 oh, you gotta %u2013 oh %u2013 and Whiteside. White Street, you remember %u2013 was that called Whiteside, or just White Street?
HB: White Street, that was %u2013
PC: That%u2019s where Mrs. Gardner and them lived %u2013 the Gardners.
HB: That was part of Freeman.
PC: Oh yeah, absolutely %u2013 Dog Alley %u2013 they%u2019s a lot of people come out of Dog Alley. As a matter of fact, the Reverend Smith %u2013 James Smith? Up at Palmers Grove %u2013 came out of Dog Alley.
HB: And he let you know it.
PC: And he let you know it. That%u2019s how I know. Cause he was preaching and %u2013
JS: What was Dog Alley like? Sounds rough. [laughter]
DW: It%u2019s a step above the Jail Alley! [laughter]
HB: It is a step above Jail Alley.
PC: Are y%u2019all gonna talk to somebody about the bootleggers in town?
HB: Oh, no %u2013
PC: Oh, oh, oh %u2013 you gonna leave that out.
DW: No, we can include it. [everybody talking at once] I didn%u2019t know to ask!
TW: Shelby was a dry county up until 1976.
PC: It ain%u2019t never been dry.
TW: I know, but I%u2019m talking about legally.
PC: I know, I know, I%u2019m just %u2013 well, you know what %u2013 I%u2019ll let you talk to other folks about that.
TW: Yeah.
PC: -- about the underground of Shelby. [laughter] ( ) wouldn%u2019t know anything about that! [much laughter and everybody talking at once]
TW: Hey, you%u2019re talking about entrepreneurs! There were some people that had businesses %u2013 other types of businesses!.
PC: Yeah, I wouldn%u2019t know about that.
TW: Not only the black men, but they%u2019re up in the hills and the hollows. Moonshine %u2013
[pause while looking at pictures]
HB: ( ) was a football player?
TW: But I think that%u2019s great about the museum, and the music, cause there%u2019s a lot of musicians that came out of this %u2013 lotta musicians came out of this county. Two are songwriters, you know %u2013 Whiteside %u2013 you know that did the Philadelphia sound %u2013 he%u2019s from right up here. Huff %u2013
PC: McFaddin and Huff -- McFaddin and Whiteside.
TW: McFaddin and Huff.
PC: Miss Jenny Ree could tell you all about them %u2013 she%u2019s kin -- they%u2019re kin to her.
DW: Miss -- ?
PC: Jenny Ree.
HB: He was born in Philadelphia; he was not from here.
TW: Well, he has roots down here.
HB: He wasn%u2019t born here; he was born in Philadelphia.
PC: That%u2019s what I was thinking.
TW: Oh, okay, he was born -- but he has some roots here. What%u2019s the other guy?
HB: His mother is %u2013
TW: Jimmy %u2013
PC: Bonnie Clyde.
TW: Bonnie Clyde.
PC: You got Bonnie ( ), you got Janice Parnette %u2013 she was the female beach vocalist of the year %u2013 The Reggie Sadler Revue --
HB: Oh yeah, Dr. Ezell was a dentist. I remember that %u2013 Dr. Ezell was a black dentist. Dr. Stuckey %u2013 Dr. Ezell was the one that delivered me, Dr. Stuckey %u2013 there was a black dentist here.
TW: You think that might be him?
HB: It has to be %u2013 cause I remember there was a black dentist here. [children in background]
DW: You remember those black %u2013
TW: I was looking at that %u2013 I remember that! That%u2019s Priscilla Ellis %u2013 that%u2019s the Miss Black Cleveland County, or something. I remember they had that competition every year at the Armory. That had to be in the seventies. They all look much different than today, don%u2019t they?
HB: Mary Akers in there?
TW: Yeah, Mary Akers.
PC: Aw, let me see that.
TW: Yeah.
PC: Mary Akers in there?
[everybody talking at once]
TW: I remember they had that. That was %u201972, %u201973 %u2013
PC: Oh, she looks just like that. I don%u2019t know why these people dressed like that.
TW: Priscilla Ellis. But you see the styles, how they --?
PC: That%u2019s the %u201CToms%u201D right there. [laughter]
DW: Except for hopefully not the eighties! [laughter]
PC: Ohhh %u2013 there%u2019s Denise %u2013
TW: I missed that whole decade, really, cause my focus was somewhere else.
DW: You didn%u2019t miss much %u2013 fashionwise!
TW: You finished high school in the eighties?
JS: In %u201997.
TW: You finished high school %u2013 oh, you %u2013 from Winston?
JS: From Winston %u2013 2001.
TW: Oh, okay. You%u2019re the millennial kid! [laughter]
NW: The ( ) pants with the pumpup sneakers.
DW: I can do you one better %u2013 the acid-wash jeans with suspenders %u2013 hyper-color shirts! Ugly, ugly!
[everybody talking at once]
JS: Everything was neon %u2013 neon orange, neon pink - -
DW: Jelly shoes.
JS: Lime
PC: Clyde %u2013 not Clyde.
TW: Bonnie.
PC: No. The Tuskegee Airmen.
HB: Oh, you talking about %u2013 you know, the %u2013
TW: He lives in Hickory?
PC: No, no, no %u2013 he%u2019s dead.
HB: No, he was Daddy%u2019s cousin. [child in background]
PC: Oh, Butch%u2019s daddy.
TW: Clyde Cabaniss?
PC: No, it was Clyde%u2019s brother, wasn%u2019t it?
HB: No, no, they%u2019re cousins. They were all cousins %u2013 Daddy, Clyde, and %u2013 I can%u2019t think of his name %u2013
PC: One of the Tuskegee Airmen was born in Cleveland County.
DW: Okay.
HB: He was born in Gaston County.
PC: Okay, Gaston.
HB: His parents were from Gaston County, but his daddy was Daddy Ray%u2019s brother. His daddy and Daddy Ray%u2019s brother %u2013 no, his daddy and Daddy Ray%u2019s daddy were brothers.
PC: Theodore.
HB: Uh-huh -- Papa and Sam %u2013 they were brothers.
PC: Sam.
HB: They were cousins.
PC: It%u2019s Butch%u2019s daddy.
HB: I know, but I can%u2019t think of it.
PC: If it%u2019s not Clyde, it%u2019s %u2013 is it Sam?
HB: No. Sam was his daddy -- I can%u2019t think of his name right now %u2013 Marshall.
PC: Marshall %u2013 was a Tuskegee Airman %u2013 Marshall Cabaniss.
HB: He married Booker T. Washington%u2019s granddaughter.
PC: He married Booker T. Washington%u2019s granddaughter %u2013 really? Wow.
DW: [clears throat] So, with the black communities, was it %u2013 I guess I get the sense it was kinda like %u2013 you just go through your neighborhood, you don%u2019t go to the end of this street, and you just stay within this %u2013
HB: No, that was them [everybody talks at once]
TW: That was my grandmamma%u2019s rule.
HB: That was their grandmother%u2019s ruling.
TW: Even there were rules within the community. You didn%u2019t go past this street. Cause there may have been bootleggers on down %u2013 in the alley, or whatever %u2013 she didn%u2019t want us to go past %u2013 it was the rules of Grandma, Margaret Cabaniss. [laughter]
PC: Now, for Tanzy, those rules and those boundaries were the boundaries of a safe place for her to play. To me, those boundaries were where adventure began! [laughter and everybody talking at once] %u201COh, so you mean once I get over there, once I get past the church,%u201D then my grandmother %u201CDon%u2019t go past the church.%u201D %u201COK,%u201D so the church is where things start!
TW: I was there when he got his whooping that %u2013 [laughter and everybody talking at once]
PC: Oh you were laughing too!
TW: He had her hat on, and he was -- he said %u201CTanzy, tell ma I just came from 7-Eleven!%u201D I said %u2013 [laughs] He was trucking down through that trail %u2013 he wasn%u2019t supposed to be on the other side. She was in her little car %u2013 te-de-te-de-te-de %u2013 she was all around the neighborhood, looking for him! And boy, he was sitting up in the tree, and she came, and she said %u201CWhere you been? I have TOLD you --!%u201D [everybody talking at once]
PC: Oh, she wore me out!
JS: You said a while ago that you were too old to get a beating in high school, but evidently you were not! [laughter]
PC: Well, I was in the back yard. [laughs] Big difference between the high school and the back yard! [everybody talking at once]
PC: Hey, look -- my momma ain%u2019t spank you like your momma spank you %u2013 my momma, she wore you out! Tanzy wore you out too, didn%u2019t she?
NW: Mom, she%u2019s crazy, man. And Daddy ( ). Yeah, I made her mad one time %u2013 I think in church, I kept on acting up, man. I turned around and her eyes got [everybody laughs] big, and man! I think that was the day I got hit with the back of %u2013 you know, the belt slipped off, and I got the buckle, or something %u2013 in the back of the head, or something like that.
TW: But that%u2019s just how the neighborhood %u2013 and everybody watched you. You couldn%u2019t get away with anything. We were trying to smoke, and we were behind my aunt%u2019s house [everybody laughs] and we heard [everybody talking at once] %u2013 and she had %u2013 up under the house, there was a little thing, and Stuart %u2013 Pete said %u201CHere come Eze, here come Aunt Eze, and threw it under the house, and Miss Lady right there %u2013 across, she said, she called Eze, cause she said %u201Cwhat y%u2019all doing back here?%u201D Cause she called her, and told her we were around there. And so that was a protection, people didn%u2019t feel like they were intruding.
JS: They didn%u2019t feel like it was somebody else%u2019s child.
TW: Right, right, right. And some parents gave them permission to discipline you, you know.
HB: Now, you better not say something to somebody else%u2019s child %u2013 they jump on you in a minute.
DW: Why do you think that has changed in that way?
HB: I don%u2019t know %u2013 I think the change of jobs, when parents started working these different shifts, and children didn%u2019t have somebody there to watch over them. The money became more important sometimes than the child. Especially when they were making more money than they%u2019d ever seen before %u2013 they got kindly %u2013 lost kinda track of what meant %u2013
NW: You got children raising children, now, so %u2013
HB: But now you do have %u2013
NW: -- both of them %u2013 immaturity %u2013
TW: And too, I think is the displaced people have become more nomadic. They don%u2019t grow up and marry their next-door-neighbor, or their %u2013 you know, the girl down the street. Everybody %u2013 when they moved up North %u2013 everybody%u2019s wanting to go up North %u2013 and so people became displaced %u2013 they started kinda like a little diaspora, I guess %u2013 you know, people started venturing out, and experiencing other things, and they got a taste of other experiences, and the neighborhood just started %u2013 you know, you just didn%u2019t have that neighborhood anymore. Well, one of the things %u2013 at Flat Rock %u2013 was that urban renewal came in. You just didn%u2019t have that connectedness.
HB: Yeah, I noticed some time those people would come home on vacation for the summers, they were so bored. Oh, you lived here before %u2013 you know, they could tell you that when they came back %u2013 %u201Coh, there%u2019s nothing to do here, we%u2019re so bored!%u201D But I came back, and I%u2019m not bored. [laughs]
DW: I saw that look! [laughs]
NW: I don%u2019t know what you mean. [laughter]
HB: He%u2019s adventurous, he%u2019s probably bored %u2013 he wants to go out and see what the rest of the world%u2019s like too. But I guess because we had been there and we%u2019d done that, so %u2013
TW: See, he%u2019s a musician. So his heart is in music %u2013 he%u2019s a music instructor, percussionist.
JS: [to Nikao] You play with your daddy.
TW: Yeah, he plays with my husband.
HB: So %u2013 ask Pete how does it feel to come back to Shelby. [laughter]
NW: Let%u2019s not!
PC: I%u2019ll never forget %u2013 I left -- went out into the cruel, cruel world, and came back. And it%u2019s very nice. You know %u2013
DW: Leaving or coming back?
PC: Coming back. I never thought that. I really enjoy driving down country roads, and no congestion. Cause I lived in Dallas for a long time %u2013 in Plano, a suburb of Dallas %u2013 and then Research Triangle Park, and you get used to that hustle and the bustle, but here it%u2019s a much quieter life, and I guess I came back at the right time. I wasn%u2019t in my late twenties or early thirties %u2013 it%u2019s nice coming back. You really appreciate seeing your friends that you went to school with, and things like that, and I think maybe that had a lot to do with what you see now in the community is that %u2013 you know, Flat Rock, you%u2019d have three, four or five generations of people. So, when people moved on and died, well, people lived in the house that they momma built. That they daddy lived in. And so there was that %u2013 there wasn%u2019t a sense of community %u2013 the community was a family. And now, you may live in that community, but you don%u2019t feel like it%u2019s a family, because you just moved here, and they just moved, and they don%u2019t really know you. But when your next door neighbor played jacks with your mother, then she don%u2019t think twice about giving you a spanking. [laughter] Or fussing at you, or taking you home, or whatever. Because she grew up with your mother, and %u201Cyour mother and I were playmates, so yeah I can tattle-tale on you,%u201D and %u201Cyeah, I can speak my mind to you,%u201D and it%u2019s not a big deal, because I know your mother. Now you don%u2019t know %u2013 you didn%u2019t grow up with your neighbor%u2019s mother. You didn%u2019t grow up with the person next door, as people began to migrate and shift, and communities began to %u2013 as the ebb and tide of the community dwelling place, as opportunities opened up, then %u2013 guess what %u2013 I don%u2019t have to live in the house that my mother was born in. Now I have the means of buying my own house. [phone rings] So, there%u2019s %u2013 with an increase of economic ability, there%u2019s actually gonna be mobility. [conversation in background]
JS: You were gone from what year?
PC: I was gone from 1976 to 2006.
DW: Oh.
PC: Basically, 1976 is when I graduated from high school, and went to college %u2013 I went to North Carolina State University. And then I worked in Research Triangle Park %u2013 Corporate America %u2013 and was transferred to Dallas, Texas, and completed my master%u2019s at SMU, Southern Methodist University. And lived up there for about ten, twelve years %u2013 fifteen years, something.
JS: And now, you just decided you were ready to come home?
PC: I %u2013 with 9/11 %u2013 spent twenty years in corporate America %u2013 was part of the telecom bust. I bought a fast food chain, invested my winnings in a fast food chain, and that didn%u2019t turn out well. That had an impact on my family life as well, so %u2013 [pause]
DW: Now I feel like there%u2019s a ton of questions [laughs], -- could keep talking, but I don%u2019t wanna tie up your time.
HB: Well, thank you for coming over %u2013 we%u2019ve enjoyed telling you what we knew.
PC: Let%u2019s give her Rayfield%u2019s number before she gets outta here. Do you have it in the hall?
HB: It%u2019s on the %u2013
TW: I have it on my cell phone.
HB: It%u2019s on the phone, there.
PC: And let me give you my sister%u2019s phone number, too %u2013 if you don%u2019t mind.
HB: Who %u2013 Ann%u2019s?
PC: No, you!
HB: Oh yeah! [laughter]
PC: And get Tanzy%u2019s number, and I%u2019m open to %u2013 you have a couple of numbers for me %u2013 I%u2019m open to help you in this issue. I think it%u2019s an admirable project that you%u2019re doing. I think Joy is one of the stellar points of our community, you know.
HB: She%u2019s the first ( ).
TW: Yeah, you%u2019re the only black %u2013
HB: Are you the one and only %u2013 is anybody else up there now?
JS: Not in the newsroom.
HB: You%u2019re still the one and only, huh. [laughs] Did you feel comfortable? Tell me how you felt when you first came there. [laughter]
JS: Well, when I first came, there were a lot of people %u2013
[Doris comes in]
PC: Come on in, Doris. Have a seat! [laughs]
TW: Let me give you Rayfield%u2019s number. His home number is 704-531-0723.
PC: Did you go to Douglas?
DORIS HECTOR: Um-hmm.
PC: Was that a all-black school?
DH: Um-hmm.
PC: Doris is from Lawndale %u2013 that%u2019s upper Cleveland County.
DW: Oh, okay. I%u2019m Dwanna.
JS: I%u2019m Joy.
DW: We were just talking about black history, and their family%u2019s experiences, and their experiences living here. We were talking about schools earlier.
JS: This will be part of the Destination Cleveland County%u2019s project with the Earl Scruggs and Don Gibson museum and theater, so %u2013
DH: So is the focus schools and music?
HB: The focus is on everything, huh?
DW: Yeah, well, as far as I know, it%u2019s %u2013 so it%u2019s Earl Scruggs and his life, and they%u2019re gonna do the museum, but they wanna have it parallel with %u2013 like, the black experience, and what were black people doing when he was a child.
PC: From what I understand, they%u2019re using the names -- Don Gibson, Earl Scruggs %u2013 as a marquee, as a destination point. But the museum has enlarged it%u2019s focus, Helen, where it%u2019s actually gonna be a history of the foothills, and not just Cleveland County. They wanna make it like %u2013 right, from what I understand. And we got into a %u2013 Doris was with me %u2013 we got into a very lively discussion about the impact of cotton in Cleveland County, in the foothills, and things of that nature.
DH: So there are also %u2013 textiles is also gonna be %u2013
PC: Textiles %u2013 textiles is gonna be very %u2013 well, you can%u2019t tell the history of the foothills without telling the history of the textile mills. Like Tanzy alluded to, this is a mill town. And of course, without cotton, you wouldn%u2019t have textiles.
HB: They still grow cotton here %u2013 but, matter of fact, they do it all with machines now %u2013 but they still grow cotton here.
JS: Yeah, there is one %u2013 is it Highway 10 where they still %u2013 the cotton?
HB: Eighteen (18).
JS: Eighteen.
HB: Eighteen. Up 74 going toward Rutherford County, they have cotton ( ) up there too.
TW: You talking about where they bale %u2013 I%u2019ve seen them collecting cotton somewhere up 18.
HB: Yeah, the machines do all the gathering now, and take it to the gin.
TW: In Fallston.
PC: Y%u2019all pick any cotton, Helen?
HB: Yes.
PC: All right, Helen picked cotton. [laughter]
HB: But you know, it was just fun for us. We picked cotton so we could have lunch %u2013 I think it was the lunchtime was more important to us more than the cotton-picking. Cause I don%u2019t ever think I picked a hundred pound.
DH: I picked cotton to go to the fair.
PC: Did you pick cotton, Doris? Doris picked cotton. Doris had to pick cotton %u2013 did you go to the Negro fair %u2013 you remember that?
DH: To the what?
PC: The Negro fair that they had %u2013
TW: The black fair.
PC: -- the black fair.
DH: No.
DW: You remember Miss Black Cleveland County?
TW: Remember when they used to have the Miss Black Cleveland County contest? They used to have it at the Armory?
DH: Oh, yeah.
JS: How long did that go on?
TW: His name was Calvin Coleman %u2013 used to do those.
JS: How long did that go on?
PC: I don%u2019t know.
JS: How many years %u2013
TW: That was in the seventies -- early seventies.
PC: I don%u2019t know.
DH: I really don%u2019t know.
HB: Early seventies %u2013 you %u2013 we didn%u2019t come back till seventy %u2013
TW: Well, I remember going to the %u2013
HB: When did we come back %u2013 seventy-four, or seventy-two?
TW: Seventy-three.
HB: Seventy-four.
TW: Seventy-four when I came to high school. Yeah, it%u2019s one of those pictures there.
DH: You talking about Miss Black Cleveland County?
TW: Yeah, Miss Black Cleveland County. You remember that, Doris? When they used to have that?
DH: Yeah.
TW: And I remember Dinkie%u2019s momma was real involved with it.
HB: Oh, was she? What was her name?
TW: She was a Merritt.
PC: What was Dinkie%u2019s momma name?
HB: She%u2019s Merritt %u2013 she was a Wray before she married %u2013 what was her name? Betty %u2013
TW: Betty %u2013 Betty Sue.
PC: Betty %u2013 Betty Sue. She passed, didn%u2019t she?
TW: Yeah. Her and a guy named Coleman %u2013 you remember that? Coleman. They were the %u2013
HB: The one that was a lawyer?
TW: No, he wasn%u2019t a lawyer. But they were the ones that were the founders who started that Miss Black Cleveland County. And I remember they had %u2013 I went to one or two of those. They would have a talent contest. It was almost like a local Miss USA type thing. They%u2019d come out, and they%u2019d do their talent, they had fashion, and then they would crown %u2013
JS: I think we had something like that in Southport %u2013 called it Miss Black Pearl.
PC: Southport %u2013
JS: North Carolina.
DW: Near Wilmington.
JS: Right on the coast.
HB: Oh, okay. So you ( ). That%u2019s good.
TW: Is that near %u2013 Southport %u2013 is that near %u2013
HB: We went to Southport. You know when we went down there together, down at Fisher?
SW: Fort Fisher?
HB: Fort Fisher? You remember when we went to Fort Fisher?
DH: Um-hmm, I remember it --
PC: Who?
HB: Mary Shearer %u2013 Mary Aker.
PC: Mary Aker, yeah %u2013 uh-huh.
TW: -- the ferry.
HB: The ferry across, and went over to Southport, and we went fishing near there?
PC: I don%u2019t know who that is, right there. I thought that was her.
HB: Southport is close to Wilmington.
JS: Yeah, it%u2019s like 30-45 minutes ( ).
HB: Yeah, cause we took the ferry across Wilmington, and came up to Southport for fishing %u2013 ( ) fishing.
PC: That%u2019s Denise Dillingham.
HB: Denise Dillingham? Denise Dillingham?
PC: Right there in the corner.
HB: Denise Dillingham?
TW: That%u2019s not Denise Dillingham.
PC: That%u2019s not?
DH: She on there.
TW: Denise Logan.
PC: Maybe she was a Logan. Ah, you know Nicey?
TW: She was a %u2013 her maiden name was Dillingham.
PC: Isn%u2019t that Nicey?
HB: Oh, that%u2019s Nicey Dillingham %u2013 oh, yeah -- you%u2019re talking about what%u2019s his name%u2019s wife.
PC: Ronald Harrill%u2019s wife.
HB: Ronald Harrill%u2019s wife %u2013 okay.
PC: Isn%u2019t that her?
HB: It could be. I was thinking about Vanessa.
PC: Is that Nicey?
DH: Which one?
PC: In the corner.
DH: Now, that%u2019s Denice Logan, there.
PC: You know her?
DH: Yeah.
PC: Okay.
DH: She went to Burns.
TW: Were you part of the integration up there? Did you go to Douglas?
DH: Um-hmm.
DW: So what was that experience like?
DH: Well, we had %u2013 it was all black until they changed it %u2013 like it went through eighth grade, and then they changed it and mixed it, and they called it Cleveland School then. [children playing in background]
HB: Who is that right there?
PC: So Douglas and Cleveland were the same school?
DH: Um-hmm.
HB: No. Cleveland School%u2019s over there on Hudson Street.
DH: Central Cleveland. Central Cleveland.
PC: She%u2019s talking about they changed the name when they integrated Douglas. They changed the name to Central Cleveland.
HB: Oh, okay.
DW: And that was in eighth grade?
DH: Uh-huh.
HB: That%u2019s through twelfth grade.
JS: Do you remember the first day of integration? What was that like?
DH: No.
DW: You remember any of your teachers %u2013 any teachers that stood out to you, or principals, or students?
DH: Miss Jones, and %u2013 she probably the only one that still %u2013 you want names that have passed?
DW: Yeah, that%u2019s fine too.
DH: Okay, Miss Baker, Mrs. Vaughn.
HB: ( ) worked up there?
DH: Um-hmm. [several talking at once] And Mr. Gold. Miss Wall.
HB: She%u2019s deceased, isn%u2019t she?
DH: Um-hmm. Miss Pass.
HB: Which one?
DH: C. J. Pass.
TW: Was she the home-ec teacher? No.
HB: C. J. Pass %u2013 who was C. J. Pass?
DH: Uh %u2013 I can%u2019t think of her first name; I just remember Miss Pass.
SW: Cal.
?: Cal?
HB: No, that sounds like a man. [pause while looking at pictures] ( ).
DH: Mrs. Jones is still alive.
PC: Mr. Williams taught us in high school.
TW: He was the assistant principal.
HB: Oh, he was at Cleveland. He must have been at Cleveland School %u2013 come from Cleveland to Shelby High. Mr. Henry was there when we went to school, too.
TW: He was the vice-principal %u2013 Mr. Henry.
PC: Jethro. [several laugh] You remember? Mr. Henry %u2013 that%u2019s what we called him %u2013 Jethro, wasn%u2019t it?
HB: He%u2019s kinda ( )
DW: So, were these teachers %u2013 were they all very similar, or was one of them, like %u2013 had the switch on [laughs] %u2013
DH: Mr. Borders, now Mr. Borders, he had the switch on. Mr. Borders, that%u2019s still living? He always had the black thing %u2013 he wanted to whoop you all the time. [everybody laughs]
DW: Is that James Borders?
DH: I think so.
HB: Yeah, his name was James.
TW: He the one that ( )?
DH: Um-hmm.
HB: Was he part of the basketball %u2013 was he part of some of the athletic department?
DH: I don%u2019t think so.
DW: I wanted to ask too %u2013 when you went to school and graduated, did a lot of the black students go off to college, or was there a high dropout rate %u2013 people had to work, or --?
[something falls]
DH: I%u2019ll say years before the year I graduated, I say quite a bit of students went off to school, but at my year of graduating, didn%u2019t many people go off to college.
DW: They just stayed in the county and worked?
HB: That%u2019s when the plants were here %u2013 PPG, and Fiber, and all those %u2013 they thought they could make more money working in the plants, than they could if they went %u2013 is that correct?
DH: Um-hmm.
DW: Around what time did you graduate?
DH: %u201974.
DW: And before that, a lot of blacks would go to college?
DH: Off to college %u2013 yeah.
TW: I think even, Momma, during your time, there were some that went to college %u2013 there were some %u2013 I don%u2019t know what the reason was as to why [someone clears throat] some %u2013 I think it%u2019s still standard reasons, just your experiences, finances, in every generation. You know, there%u2019s some %u2013 whatever their circumstances are, cause I know when you were able to go to school, and Ann, and everybody was able to go to school. I wonder why there are some %u2013
PC: That is interesting point that Doris brought up, cause I know %u2013 that was good money when those mills was running.
HB: Um-hmm.
PC: And I remember people when they could work %u2013 double-time on weekends, and double-time and a half on holidays, and it would have been %u2013 cause I know when I worked a couple of summer jobs, if it hadn%u2019t been for them saying %u201Cno, you%u2019re in school,%u201D it was like %u201Chey, this is pretty good money right here.%u201D And I%u2019ll just go on and work this an extra semester, and stay out of school. And I had bosses, or managers, that said %u201CNo, we%u2019re not going to let you %u2013 you%u2019re gonna to go back to school. We%u2019re not gonna hold this job open for you.%u201D And I remember other people being allowed to %u2013 you know, said %u201Cwe%u2019re gonna keep the job open,%u201D but they wouldn%u2019t keep it open for me.
JS: Like I said, I%u2019ve heard this over time, is that a lot of people %u2013 some would drop out of high school, or even younger to go work in the mill, so that%u2019s surprising they wouldn%u2019t let you do that.
PC: Well, I remember being jealous, of coming home from college, and my friends that didn%u2019t go to college were driving new cars. [laughter] I thought %u201CShoot, man %u2013 what%u2019s up with this?%u201D [laughter] You know %u2013 they were stylin%u2019 man!
HB: But now, you know, it was ( ).
PC: Yeah, I do. I do know.
TW: Was there an expectation %u2013
PC: No, it was just raw jealousy.
TW: No, no, no, I mean %u2013 [laughter] I%u2019m talking about the choice to go to school vs. work in the mill?
PC: Yeah, and that comes with having a vision, being able to see a future down the road, and I guess %u2013 delayed gratification. We talked about Daddy a little bit earlier %u2013 why did he do the things that he did, you know %u2013 why did he try to get people outside of their environment, why did he try to expand their vision? And I guess, we had it in our family. We could go through delayed gratification, knowing that %u2013 and believing %u2013 that there is something better down the road. You know, there is a reason to go to school, even though my friends are driving new cars, right? And I%u2019m riding the bus home. Riding around with them partying in their new cars, and I%u2019m still going back to school.
DW: I guess I%u2019ve heard stories like when schools were segregated, the teachers pushed the students to go get a college education, or improve themselves, and when school was integrated %u2013 at least in the first few years %u2013 that the white teachers didn%u2019t have that same kind of %u2013 or should have encouraged black students to go from %u2013 I guess that then you have to rely on your family and yourself to wanna go off and do something different.
HB: I just know some of your teachers, they were interested to know if you were going to go to college or not, didn%u2019t they? Over at Shelby High, weren%u2019t some of your teachers interested to know if you were going to college?
TW: Well, Mrs. Pollen was there %u2013 she was the first black counselor at Shelby High School %u2013 Carolyn Pollen. And I know she did a lot to help inform the black students about the opportunities out there.
PC: Yeah, she did %u2013 she was a knockout as a counselor.
DW: Is she still --?
TW: Yeah, she lives in Winston-Salem now, doesn%u2019t she?
HB: Um-hmm.
TW: But now she has a different ( ) Carolyn Black.
HB: I mean, but in your classes, like %u2013 if you had a English teacher, or science teacher, or whatever %u2013 did they encourage you to go further if they saw potentiality in you, saying that you need to continue your education?
TW: See, I finished in the seventies %u2013 I was around when Doris finished %u2013 I think %u201976, and I [pauses] I don%u2019t know, I guess I was just a self-motiv %u2013 I was just %u2013 I wanted %u2013 I was ambitious. That%u2019s all I can say. I was very shy, but once I was made aware, I was given information, I looked and saw where I did wanna be. And so I made decisions to go where I wanted to go. And I think a lot of it had to do with my experience being a military kid. I saw more. I had opportunity to see that there was more out there. I think that%u2019s where my sense of motivation came from, because I the opportunity to see %u2013 I was in Japan %u2013 I saw the world, I saw it %u2013 so I knew there was more out there than Shelby. So everybody has a different platform %u2013 frame of reference they come into as far as those decisions. But I was part of busing %u2013 I know %u2013 I remember that very well, back in the seventies. I lived in D. C., and I was bussed %u2013 probably fifteen miles in D. C., and I remember the integration going on. I remember getting jeers and stuff on the bus. I remember that %u2013 that the white kids %u2013 you know, I remember in the sixties when Martin Luther King was killed, there was curfews and we couldn%u2019t go out on the streets, cause of all the rioting and stuff.
JS: What was that like here? During that time, when Martin Luther King was killed, what was the %u2013 how were things ch %u2013 do you remember that?
PC: I was %u2013 there was %u2013 I wasn%u2019t allowed outside the house. [laughter]
[everybody talking at once]
PC: Now, there was some radicals around here %u2013 Vicky Brooks -- put that down. [laughter]
TW: Was she one of these kinda sisters?
PC: Oh, she was a sister! [laughter] And, you can talk to the older blacks %u2013 I was %u2013 how old were we when he died %u2013 twelve, eleven?
HB: 1968?
TW: 1968 %u2013 we were ten.
PC: Yeah, so we weren%u2019t %u2013 you know %u2013 we weren%u2019t %u2013 it was like eight o%u2019clock bedtime.
TW: Don%u2019t you remember, Momma? The National Guard were on our corners %u2013 we lived in D. C. at the time.
HB: We lived in D. C. They did a lot of rioting in D. C., so they had patrols to come patrol your streets, and you had a curfew, and you had to be at the house, and had to be home by six o%u2019clock, or something, and we were out [laughs] %u2013 yeah, we had to scoot ourselves in the house by six o%u2019clock because they patrolled the area. That Washington, D. C. %u2013 they had a big riot in Washington, D. C.
TW: But you didn%u2019t have that down in Shelby.
PC: I wasn%u2019t in it.
HB: What was that %u2013 Benning Road, where they tore that place up over there on Benning Road, and Ford Avenue.
PC: I%u2019m quite sure that there were some very strong sentiments in town, and if you can find some of the older people, much older than myself, who might have been teenagers and a little rambunctious, and didn%u2019t have bedtime curfews that were perhaps doing things [laughter] ( ) Warren Cabaniss, my brother %u2013
SW: Was he ( )?
PC: I don%u2019t know, man %u2013 you have to talk about then about what they might have been doing.
JS: How do we get in touch with Vicky Brooks?
TW: Her name was %u2013 Cumberland?
PC: You know, I told you to get in touch with Miss Lidessa Brooks?
JS: Okay, that%u2019s her daughter.
PC: That%u2019s her daughter.
JS: Okay.
PC: Yeah, Vicky and Lidessa Brooks.
DH: Oh, ( ) the church.
HB: Yeah.
TW: She lives here in Shelby.
PC: Vicky%u2019s a talker %u2013 Vicky%u2019s a very nice girl %u2013 short lady with a strong mind on her %u2013 she%u2019ll talk to you. I do wanna stay with %u2013 the white teachers that I had in elementary school? When we integrated, they were very nice to me. And they were very kind, and they were very courteous, and I do have a fond memory. In the fifth grade, I told Miss Farris, my white teacher, that I wanted to be a doctor when I grew up. And she didn%u2019t poo-poo that or anything; she said %u201Cwell, great!%u201D And for a Christmas present -- my classmates were the sons and daughters of doctors. She went to Joe McMurray%u2019s father, Dr. McMurray, and told him %u2013 I can imagine what she said %u2013 %u201Cthere%u2019s a Negro kid%u201D %u2013 an Afro-American %u2013 whatever we were at that particular time %u2013 [laughter] you know %u2013 we change on %u2018em -- hard for them to keep up, hard for me to keep up. Anyway, for Christmas, she brought me a stethoscope [everybody %u201Cawwws%u201D] in the fifth grade. She said %u201Chere, you wanna be a doctor%u201D --
TW: That%u2019s affirming.
PC: -- and it wasn%u2019t one of them blue and pink ones. It was a real one.
TW: It was a real stethoscope.
PC: A real stethoscope. And I was the neighborhood doctor. The dogs didn%u2019t stand a chance around me, boy! [laughter] I was doctoring on some dogs.
DW: So were white and black relations pretty even here, in y%u2019all%u2019s experiences?
[pause, then laughter]
TW: Well, we%u2019re pondering. I guess %u2013
PC: I%u2019ve always had very good white friends.
TW: He was on the cutting edge. He %u2013
PC: I%u2019ve always had good %u2013 I mean, they would spend the night with me, and I%u2019d spend the night with them %u2013
TW: Which was unusual %u2013 it was %u2013
PC: So I%u2019ve never had a %u2013 and my daddy always had good relationships. The South is a paradox, when it comes down to that. There%u2019s a lot of bonding between the whites and the blacks. I mean, you know they %u2013 even though we clean their houses, and there was a strong economic disparity, I truly do believe that some of us was treated almost like family. It is not uncommon to hear of a black family, when the lady or the father passes away, that the lady that cleaned their house was left in the will, or given things, or taken care of. The kids remember that this was Aunt So-and-so when we were growing up; you know she cooked and washed and cleaned for Mom; she%u2019s just like my Mom. And when she became old, and had to go to a nursing home, it was her kids -- because they had the wherewithal %u2013 that would come and take care of her financially. You know, you have that %u2013 don%u2019t you, Helen? There are spotted stories out there, so you%u2019re gonna %u2013 like I said %u2013 the South is a paradox when it comes to relationships. You have a lot of that. You have a lot of fighting on one hand, and a lot of hand-holding %u2013 %u201Clet me help you%u201D %u2013 on the other hand.
DW: Well, speaking of hand-holding, were there any interracial relationships?
PC: Well, that%u2019s the other side of the paradox! [laughter]
TW: You talking about as far as male/female relationships?
DW: Yeah.
TW: It was very rare. See, Shelby %u2013 Cleveland County, for a long time -- was black and white, and the only time you would see any other culture, was then they had the migrant workers come through %u2013 the Hispanic, or Mexicans %u2013 that would come through. And that was %u2013 that went on until they would come and pick apples all through North Carolina %u2013 whatever else they were doing, you only saw them seasonally. But I believe, after a period of time, they come through here, and a lot of the people of Hispanic heritage are settling a lot in North Carolina. A lot of them came because due to migration %u2013 migrant farming. But as far as %u2013 it had to happen, because a lot of folks in our heritage are mixed. It went way back, but it wasn%u2019t something that was %u2013 it was sort of like %u2013 it was there, you knew it was there, but it wasn%u2019t %u2013 it happened. Cause Cabaniss is not a black name. None of our last names are black, but the Cabanisses that are in Cleveland County are white. Aren%u2019t they?
PC: That is %u2013
TW: And we%u2019re the only black %u2013 I don%u2019t know, am I right %u2013 descendants?
PC: Well, and Vance Cabaniss%u2019s children [train whistle in background] (that started the Negro School), was fathered by his mother%u2019s slave master.
TW: Say that again.
NW: His mom had had a baby by her %u2013 by the master.
PC: By the master. When Vance was born, through a stroke of godly intervention, they took him into his house. My great-grandfather was raised as a white boy. He was raised with their family %u2013 I mean, he didn%u2019t sleep on the floor, he slept in their house, and was raised as one of their kids. And was portioned out a part of his inheritance, just like a kid. I mean, he was given a vast tract of land, and was treated very well. Now, they sold his mother %u2013 so that%u2019s the paradox. You know, they sold his mother because %u2013 I guess his stepmother, you know said %u201Cwe like Vance, but I%u2019m not gonna have her around here.%u201D So they sold his mother, and took him into their house, and raised him as one of their own. And I%u2019ve never heard nothing but wonderful things, and he was a %u2013 economically, he did %u2013 as they said, land was the bank, and they gave him lots of land, and he was treated very well.
TW: So that%u2019s an interesting question as to how interracial %u2013 it%u2019s happened, but it wasn%u2019t %u2013 I guess cause they lived so secluded lives, it wasn%u2019t a very visible, it was kept within, but now, like Pete was saying, through the seventies, you know, there was a lot of %u2013 I remember having good relationships with some white students here at Shelby. There was a %u2013 I only know of one upheaval, was when Perry Smith was running for something, and he didn%u2019t get it, and he started a little riot %u2013 you remember that, Pete?
PC: Yeah, I remember. [laughter]
HB: You probably started it!
PC: Yeah, well %u2013
JS: Perry Smith was who, now?
TW: They had a class %u2013 you know, like they have class presidents, and it was a runoff, and they thought it was a unfair %u2013 what I can remember, it was an unfair count, or something, they thought it was %u2013 some prejudicial influence, and there was %u2013 you know, there was a little miniature little protest.
PC: We walked out.
TW: Okay %u2013 is that what happened? [laughter]
PC: We organized a walkout, and %u2013
JS: What year was that?
PC: %u201975. And Perry and I were called into the office. [laughter and everybody talking at once] Perry might not want this out there like that! [laughing]
TW: But that was history. That was high school stuff.
PC: Yeah, and we were strongly %u2013 we were told to get on that speaker phone and calm things down, so %u2013 or asked to. I remember that %u2013 now Vicky was in a lot more mess than I was. You need to talk to Vicky. You say %u201CVicky, Pete Cabaniss said you were the Angela Davis of Cleveland County!%u201D [laughter]
TW: Angela Davis! [laughter]
JS: Is Perry Smith still around?
PC: Oh yeah, very much so.
HB: She spoke at the graduation.
TW: She did? At Warren and them%u2019s graduation -- in 1970?
HB: Yeah, she spoke at the graduation, yeah.
TW: Oh.
[pause]
HB: She%u2019s still speaking.
TW: Um-hmm.
DW: I just had a couple more questions. Earlier, you mentioned about %u2013 I can%u2019t remember who %u2013 but someone mentioned about drugs in the community. When did that %u2013 well, I guess it%u2019d go back to the bootlegging, if you count that as drugs, right? [laughter] But, when did that really start taking it%u2019s toll on the community %u2013 the neighborhoods.
( ): ( )
TW: The seventies. [laughter]
DW: We can%u2019t trace the voice! [laughter]
PC: Drugs?
SW: This family%u2019s drug-free.
TW: Possibly, it came from the hippie movement, you know, from the sixties, the psychedelic -- that experience, that whole experience, I think. You know, especially kids going to college and coming back. Experiencing things at college, and bringing it back, and share experiences with their friends, but the friends %u2013 you know, a lot of family -- went off somewhere, and they %u2013 you know, people just admire them %u2013 they come back and they%u2019re just %u2013 in the know, you know. I think some of it was introduced from the outside in.
DW: Hmm.
TW: But like you said, bootlegging was always been around. But %u2013 I think it climaxed, probably, right after %u201Cif it feels good, do it%u201D type of %u2013 era, the sixties, and on. A lot of experiential things %u2013 [pause] but I don%u2019t know of it devastating the county during that time, it just seems like %u2013 here lately, it%u2019s probably something that evolved over time.
DW: I guess that can kinda lead to my other question %u2013 since a lot of y%u2019all have moved out and come back to the county %u2013 how have you seen the county change, or changing %u2013 from what you remember growing up here %u2013 to now? Is it for the good, for the bad %u2013 indifferent?
TW: I%u2019ve been quite impressed, personally, with Shelby %u2013 being as small as it is %u2013 I%u2019ve often called %u2013 I coined this term %u2013 we%u2019ll put in on the recorder, so it know it came from Tanzy Wallace %u2013 [laughter]
DW: Copyright that!
TW: Copyright this term: I%u2019ve often called Shelby %u201Ccountry cosmopolitan.%u201D
DW: That%u2019s a good term. [laughter]
TW: Tanzy Wallace. [laughter]
DW: Dwanna Waugh. [laughter]
TW: I mean, that%u2019s my term %u2013 I coined that [several talking at once] %u2013 meaning they want to preserve things, they want to keep %u2013 they want to preserve the southern hospitality, and that whole concept of hospitality, but they wanna embrace some change. You know, they %u2013 like uptown Shelby would be the bustling place, you know %u2013 all those home, family-owned businesses were up there, but now they%u2019re all gone %u2013 because you got the Walmarts, and all these big stores that moved in, a lot of the family-owned businesses are no longer up there, so Shelby started the Uptown Shelby Association, to try to preserve Uptown Shelby. And I think it%u2019s been a great attempt to preserve that, and they%u2019ve brought in %u2013 now I call it like little Georgetowns, like little %u201Cnookish%u201D now, you know you have these little restaurants, and these little frame shops, and these little coffee things, and they%u2019re trying to keep revitalizing uptown, and I%u2019ve had many people say and compliment %u2013 they always talk about how pretty Shelby is, uptown Shelby %u2013 I don%u2019t know if you%u2019ve heard that. Every time I%u2019ve had people come and visit me, they say %u201Cthis is so cute %u2013 this is a nice little uptown.%u201D And I think the evidence of that is when %u201CBlood Done Signed My Name%u201D came here, because Shelby has still captured that %u2013 they%u2019ve preserved some things, but then, they%u2019re progressive. But not too fast, but they wanna respect %u2013 I think they%u2019re respecting both worlds. And you have a lot of %u2013 they%u2019re trying to cater to %u2013 a lot of the different ethnicities, you have all these Mexican restaurants, you%u2019ve got Chinese restaurants, you got %u2013 all this going on in this little town. That%u2019s why I call it kinda %u201Ccountry cosmo.%u201D They bringing some world %u2013 bringing the world here to make others feel comfortable. The end! [laughter]
HB: Top quality! That why Walmart is here!
TW: And they%u2019re trying to bring industry, trying to bring some industry %u2013 with the textiles moving out, they had to do some things %u2013 keep up with it, and so %u2013 I think Shelby%u2019s been on the %u2013 you know, they have their social issues with the drugs and crime, but they also are very progressive %u2013 you know, their sports program %u2013 I mean, Shelby High has been to the State several times %u2013
SW: Um-hmm.
TW: -- he plays football for Shelby High %u2013 they played for the State last year. But %u2013 you know %u2013 lot of athletes have come out of this county, too. David Thompson %u2013 played for the Denver Nuggets, Floyd Patterson, the boxer, Bobby Bell %u2013
HB: Bobby Bell, yeah. And now, what is that star %u2013 Norris, Norris %u2013
NW: Norris Hopper.
HB: Norris Hopper.
TW: Norris Hopper -- played for the Atlanta Braves.
SW: And what%u2019s his face %u2013
HB: ( )
NW: ( )
SW: Van ( )
NW: What%u2019s his name %u2013 Travis Padgett %u2013 he%u2019s going to be in the Olympics, cause he graduated %u2013
SW: But they lived in Boiling Springs.
TW: That%u2019s still Cleveland County.
SW: I thought you said %u201CShelby.%u201D
TW: Well, Gentry %u2013 he coached %u2013 who%u2019d he coach? Gentry --
NW: He coached the Clippers.
TW: The Clippers? But somebody else ( )
NW: He%u2019s an assistant coach of %u2013 I think, Detroit now %u2013 Detroit Pistons.
TW: No %u2013 is he %u2013 he%u2019s back with Detroit?
NW: No, he%u2019s with Phoenix now %u2013 he%u2019s with Phoenix.
TW: Phoenix -- that%u2019s what I thought. Gentry %u2013 Alvin Gentry.
HB: That%u2019s David%u2019s Thompson%u2019s cousin.
TW: David Thompson%u2019s cousin. [pause] But yeah, I think %u2013 I don%u2019t know if I answered your question, the last question you %u2013 that%u2019s my take on it %u2013 I don%u2019t know %u2013 do you see Shelby that way? You see Shelby that way? I mean, she%u2019s hometown %u2013 this is homegrown, right here. [laughter] She%u2019s born and reared and raised in Cleveland County, so she knows %u2013 I think, can see the change. I see that they%u2019re trying to bring industry %u2013 I like the safeness %u2013 I love Shelby. I wanted to come down here and go to school. I was in the military %u2013 my mom and dad were %u2013 lived in D. C., and I used to come down here every summer, but I always wanted to go to school here, because I just loved the closeness %u2013 it was a very close-knit family, and I just enjoyed it all. I think Doris %u2013 Doris, you remember my grandfather%u2019s bus trips?
DH: Um-hmm.
TW: Look at her smile %u2013 see, she remembers %u2013 going up in the mountains. But, yeah %u2013
END OF INTERVIEW
Deborah Rogers, September 17, 2011
This 2-hour, 40-minute interview covers the gamut of growing up and going to school in Cleveland County, from Helen, who attended all-black Cleveland School to her younger brother, Peter, and Tanzy’s two sons, Stuart and Nikao, attending integrated Shelby High, after Rayfield (Helen’s and Peter’s brother) became the first black to go to court in order to be allowed to attend the all-white school.
The interview also covers the many big name musical groups and individuals that entrepreneur Ray Cabaniss, Helen’s and Peter’s dad, brought to Holly Oak Park, which Peter believes was the first black park in the region. Aretha Franklin, Kool and the Gang, and Bo Diddley were three examples of the types of acts that came to Shelby.
Helen was only the second black to be hired at First National Bank; she retired after 25 years as a teller, the first black person to retire from the bank. Her grandfather, called Papa Walt, was a courier for the bank as well as a chauffeur when needed.
Peter tells the story of his and Helen’s great-grandfather, Vance Cabaniss, who was the child of a union between his mother and the slave owner. Vance was raised as part of the white family, but his mother was sold as a slave. Vance inherited land at the death of his father, just as the other children did.
In response to a question from one of the interviewers as to how Tanzy has seen the county change since she has lived here, she responds that she has a term for Shelby—“country cosmopolitan.” By using that term she means that Shelby wants to preserve the Southern hospitality of the area but wants to change with the times as well.
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Location: Shelby, NC